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Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

theguardian.com

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Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#61

Post by illegal_in_ca »

im3w1l wrote: post #33
crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

It's about to get a lot worse. Realistic chat bots are only now coming into play. Soon there will be 10 bots per legitimate user in every online community that discusses politics.

I can't help but think the obvious solution here is the correct one: start talking politics with people IN PERSON.

The signal to noise ratio around my kitchen table is a lot higher than on reddit (or even HN), and there are a lot fewer trolls.

We used to say "Never trust anyone you can't punch in the face."

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#62

Post by [deleted] »

simonh wrote: post #44
crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

I don't buy the evil secret conspiracy theory. I mean there are evil secret conspiracies, but they're much more narrow, factional and ineffective than advertised. Let's take Fake News. This is entirely a grass roots phenomenon. Sure there are individuals and groups behind a lot of it, but those individuals and groups are not heavily funded black ops teams of a billionaire conspiracy. They're sad white supremacist Red…

[deleted]

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#63

Post by humanrebar »

sethrin wrote: post #28
dwe3000 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but I would appreciate a little integrity/honesty. He flies all over the world, multiple times in a short time span, and then makes his money "complaining" that we are using fossil fuels, when he could have just as easily been there via a teleconference. I don't mind people that walk the talk, but Al Gore avoids that.

This is called "tu quoque"[0] or appeal to hypocrisy. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

In this case, the pitch is for sacrifice and discipline. It undermines his argument if he's somehow exempt from the plan.

As in, if even a rich, educated, and passionate Al Gore cannot actually reduce his carbon footprint, is it even doable for India and China?

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#64

Post by scient »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #3

Isn't Al Gore rich though? I'm bothered when the elite speak of others as if they're not part of that 1%.

Funny. Software engineers complaining that someone talking about politics is as rich as the politicians. But you talking about politics on behalf of people who are way worse off than you is somehow different. Its not like engineers are the poorest workers...

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#65

Post by undersuit »

jasonkostempski wrote: post #19
tome wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the headline. It's not clear that Gore said that. An actual quote is. > “I mean that those with access to large amounts of money and raw power,” says Gore, “have been able to subvert all reason and fact in collective decision making” In any case, it's clear that he's not talking about all the rich.

Is that an actual full quote? When something like "says Gore" is jammed in the middle of a quote, I always suspect there was something else in between. It could be "umm" or it could be something that changes the meaning of the entire sentence.

It's the start of the full quote. I'm sorry maybe you could RTFA.

>“I mean that those with access to large amounts of money and raw power,” says Gore, “have been able to subvert all reason and fact in collective decision making. The Koch brothers are the largest funders of climate change denial. And ExxonMobil claims it has stopped, but it really hasn’t. It has given a quarter of a billion dollars in donations to climate denial groups. It’s clear they are trying to cripple our ability to respond to this existential threat.”

It's a common technique to split a quote like this to identify the speaker and while it's good to be skeptical you should be skeptical of all information, this particular form of quoting is no less and no more infallible to manipulation than the rest of English.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#66

Post by atemerev »

anotherturn wrote: post #60
atemerev wrote: post #45

Usually Mr. Gore visits places where he gives these speeches (as well as his no less entertaining presentations on climate change and how save the environment by limiting consumption) by means of his private jet. So, not impressed. Next!

If any change is going to be made it's going to come through revolution (a la France) or through someone in the top 1% changing things from the top down (a la slavery). The fact that he gets around on a private jet is neither here nor there - we can live with hypocrisy. What we cannot live with is inaction.

I don't know who are "we" that you are speaking about, but I absolutely can't live with hypocrisy. And large-scale social changes are inevitable anyway -- universal basic income is economically impossible, and transition to post-job economy is nearby.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#67

Post by Retra »

humanrebar wrote: post #63
sethrin wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is called "tu quoque"[0] or appeal to hypocrisy. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

In this case, the pitch is for sacrifice and discipline. It undermines his argument if he's somehow exempt from the plan. As in, if even a rich, educated, and passionate Al Gore cannot actually reduce his carbon footprint, is it even doable for India and China?

Al Gore can't personally build a skyscraper, but India and China seem to have no trouble doing that. In fact, you could probably list billions of things that individuals cannot effectively do that large organizations can do.

And even if he reduces his carbon footprint to nothing, all the does is shut him up and temporarily reduce carbon emissions insignificantly. It does nothing to curb industrial processes where the bulk of carbon emissions occur.

And you'll note that hypocrisy is not actually a logic fallacy. A war general has just as much reason to be listened to when he campaigns for peace as a pacifist; because peace stands on its own merit.

EDIT: This isn't even hypocrisy, though. Al Gore isn't asking each individual to fix their own carbon footprint. He's asking institutions to do so. And institutions can do things individuals cannot (due to networking and economic effects), as evidenced by that being the whole reason institutions are formed.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#68

Post by ZenoArrow »

viraptor wrote: post #41
ZenoArrow wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "On a family scale, being rich is close to the healthiest thing you can do." I would say being self-reliant is the 'healthiest' thing you can do. Being rich is a type of self-reliance, but it comes with its downsides. The biggest one is probably isolation. A disconnection from the world around you. Perhaps the world around you is 'unhealthy' so it makes some sense to be disconnected from it, but generally it's a do…

That's a deeper / secondary result. I was thinking in terms of basic needs. Self-reliance is good, but if you live in a good area, close to a good hospital where you don't wait and don't need to worry that calling an ambulance is a debt risk, your survival chance is much higher. You can't realistically provide this yourself / in small community. Even basic human events like a childbirth: if everything goes well - gre…

That's why you should support public health services. That way everyone in your community can benefit from the services that you can't provide for yourself. Self-reliance is an ideal rather than the be-all end-all.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#69

Post by bluejekyll »

belorn wrote: post #52
mathgenius wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle The reality of the situation seems obvious to me, even if the edges are not clearly defined. I don't think it's very difficult to work out what is going on (with climate change etc.) To me this is not about people getting access to good data, or being otherwise properly educated. It's about people identifying with "their group", and attacking the "others".…

This resonate strongly with me but there doesn't seem to be any political platform that has been promoting this theory in the last 20 years. The left focus has been on promoting the distinction and multitude of groups and the strengthening of self-identity that members has towards such groupings. The right is in return focusing the distinction between self and other, making the combination of left and right a special…

Can you give some examples of when and how the Left is doing this?

From what I can tell, in general the left of the US is constantly making an attempt to be all inclusive. I'd agree that there hasn't been enough work to help people see that they have common cause with people who look different and live in different places. That's really whats needed, but it's never been clear to me how to help someone who is severely bigoted to understand that their views are born of ignorance.

From what I can tell, the Right uses positions to drive wedges between people, such that someone can literally hate something which is clearly benefiting them personally because they have turned the issue into an Us vs Them argument. The only thing I see the Left consistently use as a wedge issue is class and money... Whereas the Right uses every possible thing they can come up with to convince people that follow them that they should all be afraid of what the Left is going to "take" from them.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#70

Post by bluejekyll »

Yokohiii wrote: post #37
crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

Manipulation is on both sides of the spectrum, so I wouldn't unconditionally trust Al Gore or The Guardian either. (Not necessarily denying the topic). The media is simply by definition vulnerable to manipulation. At some point you have to trust someone who tells you the truth. There are many ways to bend the truth. What we need is strong ethics and a strong backing of them.

You're argument is basically, we can't trust either, so we should just throw our hands up and ignore them all?

The entire point of the scientific method is to come to some common understanding of fact. What we need to demand is that articles are backed by properly run studies so that we can come to a common understanding based on good methods.

Yes, Al Gore believes that the current warming trend and climate change is man-made, so he will point to those things that support his theories and possibly downplay things that do not. This does not make him wrong.

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