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U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

washingtonpost.com

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Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#791

Post by somenameforme »

Paradigma11 wrote: post #439
cbsks wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the UK is “on our side”. We’ve always been at war with Eastasia.

I dont think that is actually true in those cases. Relations with China were pretty cosy till they did a 180 around the second Bush administration and started all that Wolf Warrior diplomacy, 9 dotted line stuff, Hongkong crackdowns....... Regarding Russia, nobody really cared at all till it was absolutely impossible to ignore. Putin seems to think that he needs the west as an enemy to bolster his standing and power.…

That's a... unique take. You might want to check out the Century of Humiliation. [1] The one thing you do have right is that "good relations" in contemporary times seem to translate into "completely subservient, even to point of a willingness to engaging in self detrimental behavior if demanded." What happened around the second Bush administration was that China no longer had to be subservient, because their economy started booming, and so they could stand up for their own basic interests. One of the very few things they've pushed for is relative autonomy alongside Taiwan, which is even part of an agreement we ostensibly agree to, while then working to undermine that relationship in every way possible. You are either subservient or an enemy. Hegemony in a nutshell.

The same is largely true of Russia as well. Far from wanting the US as an enemy, Putin even inquired about joining NATO in the Clinton era. I'm sure there were some snickers about 'he doesn't get it, does he'? In fact the CIA initially felt Putin would be a terrible leader since he'd be unable to reign in Russia which was spiraling into chaos and mass criminality in the 90s. Their foresight there was about as accurate as usual.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#792

Post by aqueueaqueue »

elevatedastalt wrote: post #512

I feel Apple is one of the few companies that has the market power to say, Fuck you, we will just not sell or offer any services in your market, and I suspect that would be enough for voters to knock some sense into their government.

What is better for shareholder value? The privacy brand or the UK market.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#793

Post by mplewis9z »

bayindirh wrote: post #782
TechnicalVault wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It creates a nasty precedent doesn't it? If Apple can provide the UK government with foreign data, what's to stop Russia or China making them provide data on UK minister's phones, or more likely dissidents in exile? I can't see on what basis the government thinks they're going to get to be exceptional here?

The thing is, most people think that governments wants new tools for surveillance. The fact is, they had this power for a very long time (see Crypto A.G. and history of NSA and others), and practical and verifiable E2EE took these capabilities away . Now they want their toys back. This is why the push is so hard and coming from everywhere at once.

I think this is an extreme take - they only had those mass surveillance tools since the start of the internet, and any other method of communication (phone calls, physical mail) all required warrants individualized to specific people to tap. But somehow the internet is excluded from all those privacy protections, and now that there’s technology available to ratchet us back to where we used to be, law enforcement agencies are throwing a tantrum about not being able to constantly violate our privacy.

In my mind, it’s pretty simple: if you want to surveil someone, get an individualized warrant to access their devices and data. If they refuse or wipe their data, treat it like destroying evidence in a case and throw the book at them. There’s zero excuse for what law enforcement and intelligence agencies have done to our privacy rights since 9/11.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#794

Post by aqueueaqueue »

botanical76 wrote: post #198
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood this kinds of arguments... both sides want to read your private data, but it's bad if 'the other side' does it? It's your current MI5/government that wants access to apples data.

My interpretation is that it is an argument against trust in authority in privacy discussions. A: Privacy matters! B: Why should you care if you have nothing to hide? A: If you have nothing to hide, then give me the password to your Facebook. B: I don't trust you with that, but I trust my governments and relevant authorities. The point is that B's faith in authority is flawed as the "powers that be" are an eternally…

That shifting target can also shift immediately it doesnt need an election.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#795

Post by bayindirh »

mplewis9z wrote: post #793
bayindirh wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, most people think that governments wants new tools for surveillance. The fact is, they had this power for a very long time (see Crypto A.G. and history of NSA and others), and practical and verifiable E2EE took these capabilities away . Now they want their toys back. This is why the push is so hard and coming from everywhere at once.

I think this is an extreme take - they only had those mass surveillance tools since the start of the internet, and any other method of communication (phone calls, physical mail) all required warrants individualized to specific people to tap. But somehow the internet is excluded from all those privacy protections, and now that there’s technology available to ratchet us back to where we used to be, law enforcement agen…

These (mass surveillance) programs go back to 60s, and it was already prevalent before internet was widespread, also internet was also under blanket surveillance way before. Moreover, this is not only limited to internet per se. Phone calls and any form of unencrypted communications are probably actively monitored for signals intelligence. We're not seeing laws related to this, because mechanisms are probably already in place.

So, I'm keeping my stance of "They want their tools back, because they had them before".

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#796

Post by kandesbunzler »

buyucu wrote: post #748
botanical76 wrote: post #91

This is so disheartening. I thought we were making progress in the anti-surveillance privacy narrative, but this says otherwise. As a UK citizen, is there anything I can do to dissuade this? edit: typo

vote for people who are anti surveillance.

so right wing?

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#797

Post by maxnoe »

blindriver wrote: post #535

The US is the only country with codified freedoms from the government. Every other country has rights given by the government to their citizens. The US may suck every now and then, but the US constitution is one of the best things in human history. It protects us from governments like the UK that don't think they have any limits to control their citizens.

Please read Articles 1 to 19 of the German Constitution.

It's a worthwhile read for anyone.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#798

Post by thelittleone »

mplewis9z wrote: post #793
bayindirh wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, most people think that governments wants new tools for surveillance. The fact is, they had this power for a very long time (see Crypto A.G. and history of NSA and others), and practical and verifiable E2EE took these capabilities away . Now they want their toys back. This is why the push is so hard and coming from everywhere at once.

I think this is an extreme take - they only had those mass surveillance tools since the start of the internet, and any other method of communication (phone calls, physical mail) all required warrants individualized to specific people to tap. But somehow the internet is excluded from all those privacy protections, and now that there’s technology available to ratchet us back to where we used to be, law enforcement agen…

How to achive total pervasive surveillance? One step at a time where each step is not quite too much to cause rioting and revolution. Outrage has a very short attention span.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#799

Post by ExoticPearTree »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #295
Lio wrote: post #273

I don't think the UK government would try to put Apple out of business if they don't comply it's more likely that they would just get heavily fined until they do so. The most likely outcome, I would guess, is that Apple just stop offering Advanced Data Protection as a service in the UK rather than create some kind of backdoor. It's a weak proposition from the government because anyone with something to hide will just…

You're assuming that turning off ADP in the U.K. is sufficient to appease the British Government. The Investigatory Powers Act can also be interpreted to give the U.K. the right to ask for encrypted data from users outside of the U.K. (see Apple making this exact point in a filing here [1].) Turning off ADP in the U.K. doesn't end the controversy if that's what's at stake. [1] https://bsky.app/profile/matthewdgreen.b…

If Apple sticks to their guns, they can just stop doing business in the UK. And the UK government will have zero rights to demand anything from Apple.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#800

Post by kandesbunzler »

Havoc wrote: post #113

UK tech laws seem to consistently be the worst of both worlds. Not rights centric like the EU and not business supportive like the US. Just old people making bad laws about stuff they don't understand - or are straight up citizen hostile, sometimes hard to tell which it is.

What are you talking about? I'm a german and the surveillance here is crazy. The EU is pushing for more surveillance. I always love the left wing echo chambers like reddit/HN who pretend like the EU is some kind of utopia.
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