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Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

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Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#771

Post by AndyKelley »

joemi wrote: post #583
AndyKelley wrote: post #392

I think we should strive for making all "middle-man" platforms non-profits. App stores should be run by non-profits. Food delivery platforms should be non-profits. Rideshare platforms should be non-profits. I think it's the only way to defend against the natural process of enshittification that occurs when the platform itself is has a conflict of interest from the two parties that it connects. That goes for Patreon i…

This is an interesting idea. Though I think it'll be tough to differentiate what exactly constitutes a middle man, and therefore hard/impossible to enact. Would marketplaces (such as Amazon) be considered a middle man? If so, good luck making any traction on this plan. If not, then why would app stores be considered middle men if Amazon isn't? It would have to come down to some very particular and very exact legal po…

Yeah you could try to enforce it with a law, that's one strategy. But there's also the strategy of just getting in there and outcompeting the encumbents! As a consumer, I would certainly favor a new, non-profit player in this space.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#772

Post by kweingar »

The arguments in HN and elsewhere about monopoly seem to be missing the point imo. My problem isn't even with Apple's 30% take rate!

I use Patreon on the web on a non-Apple desktop computer. Apple is simply not part of the equation in my transaction with Patreon. But because of Apple's App Store policy, Patreon has to remove useful features from the web app. That seems like an abuse of power to me.

If you have Apple goggles on and disagree, I ask you to consider a reverse situation. Imagine that your favorite third-party iPhone apps delete features because some other company in charge of some other platform demands it. Technically the app developer could simply pull out of that other platform, but they do the math and conclude they will lose less revenue by degrading the iPhone app and pissing off iOS users. Doesn't that seem outrageous?

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#773

Post by johnnyanmac »

Arainach wrote: post #219
InsomniacL wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does apple allow that? I think there are rules about telling people not to use IOS method. Not sure if that would extend to content displayed in the app too from creators?

Take Apple out of the loop entirely. Why does Patreon need an app? Have users go through the website. Send them updates when people post new content. I've never used the Patreon app on either Android or iOS. I support a number of creators and I have no idea why I'd want an app. Money is taken from my account. Receipts are sent to my email. Articles from creators are sent to my email, and if they're long enough I clic…

It's probably a generational divide now. For many middle/younger gen z and the upcoming Gen alpha, apps "are" the web. Not having an app to look at may as well not exist. Especially true of IOS users.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#774

Post by johnnyanmac »

kmeisthax wrote: post #364
omoikane wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that Patreon does not use Google's payment system and isn't subject to a cut of the revenue. This is why the article says "Your prices on the web and the Android app will remain completely unaffected".

At least until 2025 when Google implements the exact same policy change. Every questionable hardware choice Apple does is something Android vendors or Google Play copies within a year. Remember when Samsung made fun of Apple for removing the headphone jack?

unlike Apple who has managed to dodge scrutiny, Google is being reemed hard by the US courts over multiple antitrust issues. It may happen eventually, but I think the courts doing their jobs will stall such pivots. The last thing they want to do is make their store sound more like a monopoly.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#775

Post by johnnyanmac »

kalleboo wrote: post #686
bluescrn wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone's heard horror stories about Paypal, though. Doesn't seem like a platform that you want to become too reliant on.

I've heard horror stories about Patreon as well. Your best bet is probably to spread your risk by being on Patreon, Ko-fi, PayPal+Web, YouTube memberships (if you do video) etc.

managing so many fronts with such different medium (you can host all media on patreon, only really videos on YT but also more limited videos than patreon. then you can't host at all on ko-fi), sounds like a pain both logistically and financially.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#776

Post by raxxorraxor »

Nekorosu wrote: post #750
cortesoft wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

Heh. I didn't even know there was a Patreon app. There is an issue though. A lot of people (not me) use phone as their main computing device. And Apple is well known for keeping web app experience subpar compared to native app experience. Safari is lagging behind all the other browsers regarding modern APIs support. Bugs are not getting patched for years. At the same time other web rendering engines are not allowed o…

They can take their time, although they seem to implement the worst parts of it. Remote attestation and manifest v3. Who else could ever live without these features?

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#777

Post by johnnyanmac »

underlipton wrote: post #388
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Building and running your own site is a lot more work than using Patreon. 2. Now you're at PayPal's tender mercies, which... well, you do you, but I wouldn't advise it.

Keep it simple, use templates. In fact, how amazing would it be if someone who was about to embark on yet another decentralized protocol fiasco instead just released a Patreon-like template? There are other payment providers.

>how amazing would it be if someone who was about to embark on yet another decentralized protocol fiasco instead just released a Patreon-like template

they probably exist already (minus payment processing). Network effects take hold as usual, though. Patrons are more willing than average to jump, but I can see hesitation signing up and adding payment for a new/unknown website

and honestly all payment providers suck in some unique way. Though most of the fault lies in Visa/Mastercard. That's a monopoly we need to tackle one day.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#778

Post by fxtentacle »

petre wrote: post #731
echelon wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many of the apps you're complaining about are paying 30% to Apple? Hotels and restaurants definitely aren't. If the CEOs could sign a petition that had a sure chance of antitrust action against Apple's fees, every single one of them would be itching to sign.

Maybe s/he doesn't want to waste their time doing that and instead the company is politely signaling to their users that they're being charged junk fees by continuing to use the iOS app. Which is quite fair and transparent behaviour. Why take on Apple when you can correctly inform your users and push them to give Apple the boot?

In the EU that's what they are doing. In the US, Apple will lock your account for snitching about the Apple tax to your users. See the Epic lawsuit.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#779

Post by fauigerzigerk »

tensor wrote: post #646
baby_souffle wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The economics would suggest that Patreon should do away with their iOS app, focus iOS users on the web, and everyone would be ahead. Apple doesn’t let web apps do everything that native apps can do. Their App Store is the only way people get apps on their device and if a search for ‘patreon’ in the App Store returns nothing, that’s a lot of confused or angry people that are going to wonder what their monthly bill i…

What? I have many many many monthly bills that are not iPhone apps. My gas bill may or may not have an iOS app, but I'm sure as hell not confused and angry if it doesn't.

Your gas bill is probably charged and billed directly by the gas supplier.

People get confused very easily when small digital subscriptions are charged through third parties on behalf of sellers whose name is often different from the app or service.

I'm not sure a shop app fixes that though. Better communication and better choice of names seems far more important.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#780

Post by johnnyanmac »

whimsicalism wrote: post #318
froggit wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not p2p. 2 transactions happen: you pay patreon, patreon pays them.

likewise with venmo, no? who gets to decide what constitutes a transaction

If we're being honest, private backroom deals based on a variety of business factors and debates. Venmo is Paypal, Paypal has Musk's and Thiel's deep pockets. They can and will settle something.

There is no real line, just imaginary ones apple draws arbitrarily.

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