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8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

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Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#751

Post by seneca »

Bud wrote: post #294
tombert wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I'm on the same boat as you on this one; I tend to have a pretty libertarian view on free speech, but lately the bizarre rise of hyper-radical idiots on places like 8chan (and even YouTube to a lesser extent) has really made me question these things. It's very easy to shout the mantra of "Free speech!!! OMG!!!" but we gain nothing by acting like there aren't natural consequences to it. By having a liberal fre…

"Free speech" protections DO NOT APPLY to a private company deciding whether to provide internet services to something like 8chan. Period. I continue to be surprised at the level to which people misunderstand this.

> I continue to be surprised at the level to which people misunderstand this.

That's probably because you are actually the one misunderstanding. The argument it sounds like you're making (I apologize if I'm reading you wrong) is the often made one that "Freedom of speech only protects you from the government". This argument equivocates the idea of freedom of speech with the First Amendment.

Many Americans, and freedom loving folks internationally, believe that freedom of speech is critical for a liberal democracy to exist. Many of the American founders believed in the idea and enshrined it in our Bill of Rights to make sure the Government can not violate it. They did not, however, create he idea of freedom of speech, which existed long before the Bill of Rights, exists outside of America and outside of the context of Government and Citizens.

Think of it like murder. People do not find murder reprehensible because it is illegal. It is illegal because it is reprehensible, and most people would not support it regardless of its legal status (I hope). The idea of murder and the legality of murder are related but separate.

Your argument is therefore taking as narrow a scope of the idea of freedom of speech as possible and then arguing against that, which is a type of straw man argument. I hope that clarifies the logic fallacies involved in your argument and helps you better understand those you disagree with.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#752

Post by FooHentai »

ddebernardy wrote: post #375
tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

Personally I'm in agreement with Popper's view that societies should tolerate everything except intolerance. It draws a fine line between what's acceptable speech and what is not. And going by it, things like 8chan should get shut down. The line of thought you put forward, by contrast, rubs me in a very wrong way. It was used to justify, depending on the period and country, not allowing people to vote on the basis th…

>It draws a fine line between what's acceptable speech and what is not. And going by it, things like 8chan should get shut down.

I agree with most of your post, but on this particular point...

"First they came for the imageboards, and I did not speak out because I did not post on imageboards. Then they came for my facebooks, and zomg how did this happen?"

8chan is just an anonymous imageboard, similar to thousands of others online currently. It happens to have the characteristic of allowing creation of new imageboards in a similar way to Reddit allowing anyone to create subreddits. This characteristic has made it one of the most popular imageboards.

Much like the solution for Reddit was to shut down individual subreddits and ban particular posters, and the solution for Facebook was to close down individual groups and ban particular accounts, the solution for 8chan is to shut down individual boards and ban particular posters.

>Popper's tolerance criteria, by contrast, seems clearcut in a you know it when you see it kind of way.

This breaks down quickly when faced with a current example: Some folks oppose immigration of people that follow religions which espouse intolerance. Via your measure, this is justified. But many I think disagree with that stance, so how can this be resolved?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#753

Post by sb057 »

jaf656s wrote: post #343
DuskStar wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of them is that they can serve customers as they like, as long as they are not violating the rights of a protected class. Political ideology or party affiliation is not a protected class, nor should it be. Twitter could ban every Republican on its platform tomorrow and it if the government tried to stop them the Supreme Court would likely side with Twitter. Where's the line between "political ideology" and "rel…

"kill all the jews because islam says jews are evil" is not protected speech by any stretch of the imagination

>The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

Time to ban the Hadith, then?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#754

Post by sb057 »

allemagne wrote: post #362
Smithalicious wrote: post #215

This once again goes to show that you can do nothing illegal and still be virtually locked out of the internet. The viewpoint that "it's okay to kick 8chan off the internet" is not consistent with the viewpoint that "the internet should be neutral infrastructure". Take from that what you will. People are doing the "yada yada not entitled to a platform" thing, but the distinction between free speech and having a platf…

I get that you're trying to address a larger philosophical question, but what action are you actually suggesting in this particular instance? Should Cloudflare be forced to host 8chan? Even more than YouTube/Twitter, this seems like a clear case of business owners deciding that 8chan is too much of a liability to do business with.

>Should Cloudflare be forced to host 8chan?

If they have a monopoly on a necessary infrastructure, yes.

Alternatively, should the local power company be forced to provide electricity service to a resident in their area they do not like?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#755

Post by DonHopkins »

ddebernardy wrote: post #502
irrational wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Popper's tolerance criteria, by contrast, seems clearcut What is that criteria? Because I can easily see people disagreeing on what is and is not intolerant. Would you agree that saying that a baker in Colorado must make a cake for a gay wedding is intolerant of the baker's belief? Because I'm certain a sizeable proportion of the US population would agree that it is intolerant.

Frankly, I don't know what a specific legal criteria might even look like. In fact, I'm not even sure I'd like someone smarter than me with legal street credentials to come up with one. What I do know is that SCOTUS famously refused to define what porn is [0], and went instead with something to the effect of: I know it when I see it, and this is not it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it Methi…

I always took "I'll know it when I see it" to actually mean "I want to see a whole lot of it!", as Edwin Meese demonstrated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meese_Report

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/10/21/books/some-say-meese-repo...

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#756

Post by anigbrowl »

yhamv wrote: post #40
commanderjroc wrote: post #6

I guess you could say that free speech has limits that are acceptable. You know you can't yell fire in a crowded room and not get litigation and charges brought against you. So, maybe 8chan just ran past the fine line of hate speech vs encouraging acts of hate. I.e you can be racist but you cannot encourage acts of extremism. If 8Chan was a breeding ground for Islamic Extremists would people be okay with still existi…

>If 8Chan was a breeding ground for Islamic Extremists would people be okay with still existing? Depends on whether those people support free speech or not.

Well, let us know if you ever arrive at an opinion on that question.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#757

Post by mindslight »

ogun7 wrote: post #743
tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

Free speech does not apply in any of these cases. These are all privately owned platforms. The first Amendment protects the populace from the government policing speech.

How many times is this tr[oi]pe going to be blindly repeated before its promoters bother to look up the definition of free speech and find it's a more general concept than simply the first amendment to the US Constitution?

I suppose this misbelief is itself a demonstration that truth and justice do not necessarily prevail in open argument. Still, we are better off with many terrible ideas persisting than to further allow those in power to arbitrate truth.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#759

Post by username3 »

slg wrote: post #311
tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

>The concept of freedom of speech falls apart if universally reprehensible speech is allowed to be publicaly espoused without being firmly challenged. Forums like 8chan and 4chan effectively incubate hate speech by providing a safe space for anonymized, like-minded individuals to congregate, espouse their basest thoughts and feelings and receive gratification for it -all without challenge. Moderate people are repulse…

8chan incubated hate speech because no one challenged hate speech on 8chan. 8chan welcomed everyone, but everyone ignored 8chan.

>The concept of freedom of speech falls apart if universally reprehensible speech is allowed to be publicaly espoused without being firmly challenged. Forums like 8chan and 4chan effectively incubate hate speech by providing a safe space for anonymized, like-minded individuals to congregate, espouse their basest thoughts and feelings and receive gratification for it -all without challenge.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#760

Post by rolltiide »

they just switch web hosts and CDNs right?

literally anyone looking for a large customer right now is salivating.

Its like how all those encrypted data stores have employees that love the vision and have no idea that all their customers are porn companies until one day they realize and also realize leadership doesn't care and is highly entertained at this reality

get those revenue numbers up

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