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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#711

Post by chris_wot »

forapurpose wrote: post #709
chris_wot wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I think you fail to understand is that there are many, many native-English speakers who cannot write properly and have bad grammar and spelling. This is not just a non-native English speaker issue. I think if the intent of the speaker is to answer a question and they can be understood reasonably well, but their English is not perfect, then we should give them some slack.

> we should give them some slack I appreciate the spirit of the parent, but I think even that message starts with the wrong premise. It assumes that the group with high proficiency in English ("we") decides whether or not to welcome others with low proficiency ("them"). In fact, the commenter several levels up is as much a member of HN as you and I. The guidelines for contributions are not about English proficiency,…

I’m not sure you and I have disagreed on anything I said.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#712

Post by tedmiston »

slavik81 wrote: post #691
tedmiston wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have had 3 high rep users of the site close a question I asked I have some mod privileges on SO and have been a user for ~8 years. The best way to not have your question locked or deleted, is to ensure you're following the best practices for asking a question and include a Minimum Complete Verifiable Example (MCVE). https://stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask If you feel you've done both and still don't get a good…

I've never had a question closed, but do have to agree with JPGalt that there is a problem. A lot of power is vested in high-rep users who got to high rep by making lots of snap judgments. In the Qt tag, I frequently encountered high rep C++ developers guessing at answers. They knew the language, but were unfamiliar with the library and would make guesses at how things work. Then other C++ developers browsing the fro…

That's an interesting point. I mostly answer in Python, HTML, and CSS, and haven't seen this happen over there.

It reminds me of when SO added the feature to make front-end code snippets in answers runnable. Perhaps an evolution of that is to provide the equivalent for backend code. Do you think this would solve the voting problem you described?

To the linked question - Do you know if it's possible to undo a "mark as dupe"?

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#713

Post by Can_Not »

warty wrote: post #384
wheelie_boy wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core problem is that they've focused too much on being like wikipedia (a single authoritative, comprehensive answer to each important question), and not enough on helping people to learn. Over time a site will grow a culture, and experts on the site will outweigh and overrule experts on the subject matter. In this case, we're also seeing answerers' needs outweigh askers'. If you could only meet the needs…

There's nuance here. There are plenty of cases where individuals ask XY questions, meaning they've gone down a strange route to solve X and now need help solving Y, and it's always been debated within the community on whether you should solve X or oftentimes go to great lengths to solve Y. I've seen many questions where a solution to X is answered and heavily downvoted. I'm not sure how you resolve that. Question: Ho…

> There are plenty of cases where individuals ask XY questions, meaning they've gone down a strange route to solve X and now need help solving Y

In my experience I see more of the opposite: XY answers. I search for or ask X, and there's a bunch of "smart guys" trying to subvert a secret hidden context to the question resulting in a secret question Y. When I arrive from Google to see the Y answer on X question, the answer is useless because unmentioned condition Y doesn't apply to my scenario. Multiple answers are always great though, because sometimes there is a sane default answer, and one or more "well if Y applies, you might actually [...]". There's a lot of value in multiple answers with their nuances explained or why they're outdated or the new way explained, etc..

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#714

Post by dang »

kadenshep wrote: post #694
dang wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pursuing someone's personal details or history and bringing them into HN threads as ammunition isn't allowed here, regardless of how wrong someone is. Whatever edge you gain in an argument is wiped out by the damage you do to the community by attacking someone this way. Please don't do it, and especially please don't do it in a bunch of different posts, as you did in this case.

>Pursuing someone's personal details He posted a HN comment that referenced an explicit link. That is not "personal." It's a publicly stated position, and one that sheds light on his true motivations on this subject. I think this statement is disingenuous.

I can see how it could seem that way, because I skipped some details.

There's a spectrum of these behaviors; some are outright doxxing but most aren't, and there's widespread disagreement about what to call them. When I said "pursuing personal details" I was referring to this spectrum. "Extraneous details" or "history" (edit: added above) might have been more accurate, but this is not the important distinction.

On HN, we've learned that when one user follows another's trail and comes back with ammunition to discredit them with, it lowers the discussion quality in a way that bodes ill for the community. You can see that clearly in this case; when someone finds four different places to post like that, they've crossed into something we don't want to become a norm here.

Whether the details were public or not doesn't change much. The real issue is that this genre of online shaming/war does more harm than good to a community like HN, which is trying for a different value system, so it's better to just keep it out of here.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#715

Post by manigandham »

galacticpony2 wrote: post #636
manigandham wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about easy or hard, the point is that it is under your control. If your emotions are subconscious and you yourself aren't fully in control then how could you possible blame someone else for them? If it's that simple to be affected then you could just as easily affect yourself back to the state you want to be in, hence it is a circular argument without basis. The world happens. You react. Equip and train your…

> It's not about easy or hard, the point is that it is under your control. My point, if that hasn't been clear by now, is that your emotions are not under your control. Your physical reactions may or may not be. > If your emotions are subconscious and you yourself aren't fully in control then how could you possible blame someone else for them? People stimulate each other's emotions with their behavior, some behavior…

I'm not sure what you're arguing because we're not discussing probabilities or socially acceptable behavior. We're talking about cause and effect, of self control over actions and feelings. The standard is that you should have personal responsibility and control your emotions, the highest standard there is.

Yes, there are obviously certain patterns of behavior and you shouldn't punch people, however it is completely within their control what they feel and do about it. They can choose to hit back, or ignore you. Just because everyone reacts with anger to something does not mean you must. It only means that it's a common reaction, nothing more, and has nothing to do with control over that action itself. They choose to do something, you can choose differently, even if you're 1 in a million. What about that is confusing?

Either you believe you have the will to control your emotions and actions or you don't. And if think you don't and it's really that simple to affect your emotions without any mental control, then you must also accept that you can impart that same effect by just doing different actions and making yourself feel differently.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#716

Post by slavik81 »

tedmiston wrote: post #712
slavik81 wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never had a question closed, but do have to agree with JPGalt that there is a problem. A lot of power is vested in high-rep users who got to high rep by making lots of snap judgments. In the Qt tag, I frequently encountered high rep C++ developers guessing at answers. They knew the language, but were unfamiliar with the library and would make guesses at how things work. Then other C++ developers browsing the fro…

That's an interesting point. I mostly answer in Python, HTML, and CSS, and haven't seen this happen over there. It reminds me of when SO added the feature to make front-end code snippets in answers runnable. Perhaps an evolution of that is to provide the equivalent for backend code. Do you think this would solve the voting problem you described? To the linked question - Do you know if it's possible to undo a "mark as…

It is possible to reopen, but it requires 5 voters with >3k rep to do so, or one voter with a gold badge for the tag.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#717

Post by forapurpose »

chris_wot wrote: post #711
forapurpose wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should give them some slack I appreciate the spirit of the parent, but I think even that message starts with the wrong premise. It assumes that the group with high proficiency in English ("we") decides whether or not to welcome others with low proficiency ("them"). In fact, the commenter several levels up is as much a member of HN as you and I. The guidelines for contributions are not about English proficiency,…

I’m not sure you and I have disagreed on anything I said.

Hmmm ... in hindsight it looks like I took one phrase out of the whole comment, interpreted it literally, added some analysis of my own, and really pounced on it. Now I understand what happens to public figures. Sorry.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#718

Post by chris_wot »

forapurpose wrote: post #717
chris_wot wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure you and I have disagreed on anything I said.

Hmmm ... in hindsight it looks like I took one phrase out of the whole comment, interpreted it literally, added some analysis of my own, and really pounced on it. Now I understand what happens to public figures. Sorry.

All good :-)

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#719

Post by voidr »

SO is a website where people ask technical questions and get technical answers, by default nothing about a users identity is exposed.

This posts just looks like a a poor attempt at jumping on the whole "helping the marginalized" bandwagon without actually helping or doing any research.

> Let’s do something about comments. Condescension and sarcasm have been reluctantly tolerated in comments for too long. We’ll research possible feature changes, but let’s start by working with the community and our community managers to start flagging and deleting unkind comments now.

I'm sure there will be no backlash from what used to be their core user base.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#720

Post by Joeri »

Joeri wrote: post #475
lambda wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a high-scoring user who has been put off by this exact behavior. The problem is, the behavior is pervasive among other high scoring users, and whenever I advocate against this kind of behavior, I get a whole bunch of pushback about it. No one seems to want to change. No one seems to want to even engage with criticism about the culture; they just push back and pile on when criticism is brought up. After a couple t…

I’m in the same boat. 10k rep on SO and softeng.se, and I barely participate anymore. For me the most frustrating part is that the rules forbid vague questions with opinionated answers, but that at this point in my career most of the things I find interesting are all like that so there’s almost nothing I want to get answers to that I can ask. Software architecture questions are very difficult to ask without triggerin…

This is an example of what I mean:

https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/3698...

I'm sure the moderator feels entirely justified by closing this question, and going by the rules they are perfectly right, but it still feels wrong to me to turn this user away instead of working with them to figure out a way to make their questions fit the website's format.

But, that takes a lot of work, and moderators are volunteers whose time is entirely on their own dime. I suspect that if the stackexchange network had paid moderators the outcome would be very different, but they probably don't have the funding model to support that. I myself also don't do moderator duties on the SE network, so I really shouldn't be blaming the moderators. I merely want to point out the frustration and the non-optimal outcome, not lay blame at the moderators' feet.

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