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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#701

Post by ruirr »

waydowntogo wrote: post #274

I tried answer questions the best way I could and I had nice respond from asker mostly like it BUT there was almost everytime some smartass (with higher points than me and voted down my answer) who had some problem with that - bad words or word-order (i'm not kinding); too short answer etc. So I left. I wanted share my knowlidge but they didn't wanted them. Now admins/owners are crying. Just epic!

As a non-English living in a country where English is not even an official language, I strive to write good quality answers, either technically or in grammar. A good answer takes an investment of time to write. If someone is not willing to take some time to correct the English and research an answer, it is natural low-quality answers are not welcomed. It takes less work answering them ourselves than improving bad answers. Furthermore, what the owners are asking is that 90% of the users take care of the 10% that generates noise for free, and are telling the majority of the user base there are others that are more important than them.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#702

Post by GyYZTfWBfQw »

lakechfoma wrote: post #136
fidels wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think what they mean is that when a minority goes to SO and they get a condescending response it's because of their race/ethnicity/gender. What they mean is that, since minorities might have insecurities about their ability to code because there are not that many people who look like them in the industry, when they receive a condescending response their insecurities aggravate. Therefore, SO can be consider mo…

Also I feel like SO discourages any kind of personality showing, which in turn makes the place feel like it is occupied by a legion of "Zuckerbots". Not exactly an inclusive place for people who are proud of their identity and that identity strongly differs from "young cis hetero white male".

People in that kind of setting don't care about your identity, they care about your contributions.

People are encouraged to stay on-topic (nowadays known as: cyber-bullying) rather than spamming the site with irrelevant personal details.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#703

Post by GyYZTfWBfQw »

oe7Ahwur wrote: post #175
mistersquid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is a beautifully written and well-considered reply. As someone who has had both academic and career success (and failures), I know I am capable as a developer and able to contribute meaningfully to technical discussions. As a person of color, however, I have also experienced harassment by police, suspicious looks from shop owners, and outright hostility from drunken young men. So, whenever I encounter what appe…

I do not like this line of reasoning because it basically advocates walking on eggshells around everyone since it is not possible to model the potential fragility of mind of billions of humans. I read some arguments that being drive-by downvoted without comments somehow made people unwelcomed. And you add to that that this is practically a form of PTSD. If I am supposed to model people at the other end of the screen…

Look at my karma! I'm clearly oppressed, too. My down-voters are the reason I am experiencing great distress, needless anxiety, etc. Do they care? Of course not, but they expect me to care about their well-being.

P.S. You actually have been down-voted. Hilarious. Some people are seriously deluded.

EDIT: Immediately down-voted, shit, I'm going to continue whining about it instead of not giving a crap. What a hostile, and racist environment! I might as well be black, you bully! Stop giving me mental distress with your down-votes! I feel unwelcome!

EDIT 2: This comment has been flagged and people are unable to see the irony in that. Fascinating.

What if I really do experience mental distress and all of the above? I could literally copy paste those whiners' comments and still get down-voted while they are being protected. Why am I not being protected on the same basis? :(

Is it because you believe I'm lying? Am I not weak enough for you?

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#704

Post by GyYZTfWBfQw »

Mithaldu wrote: post #515
oe7Ahwur wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not like this line of reasoning because it basically advocates walking on eggshells around everyone since it is not possible to model the potential fragility of mind of billions of humans. I read some arguments that being drive-by downvoted without comments somehow made people unwelcomed. And you add to that that this is practically a form of PTSD. If I am supposed to model people at the other end of the screen…

> I don't see myself as a kind person and asking me to spend extra mental energy If you can't be kind, then the preferred action from you is for you to save your energy for the days when you can be kind. That's better for everyone involved.

Define "kind" and define "better for everyone".

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#705

Post by Mithaldu »

GyYZTfWBfQw wrote: post #704
Mithaldu wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see myself as a kind person and asking me to spend extra mental energy If you can't be kind, then the preferred action from you is for you to save your energy for the days when you can be kind. That's better for everyone involved.

Define "kind" and define "better for everyone".

If you don't know the meaning of those yet, save your energy for the day when you do.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#706

Post by chris_wot »

ruirr wrote: post #700
forapurpose wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you stick around HN, regardless of your command of English. High English proficiency isn't in the HN guidelines - most of the smart people in the world don't speak English at all! The one violating the guidelines is the other commenter who criticized you; please don't let them ruin things for the rest of us. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I did not get out of my way to talk about his command of English, he is the one mentioning it about problems in other forums. I am not native, however if in an English forum, I will have to talk English. Otherwise, nothing prevents me from selecting forums in a language I am more proficient. Beware of the extremism in being politically correct. The truth will always be the truth.

What I think you fail to understand is that there are many, many native-English speakers who cannot write properly and have bad grammar and spelling. This is not just a non-native English speaker issue.

I think if the intent of the speaker is to answer a question and they can be understood reasonably well, but their English is not perfect, then we should give them some slack.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#707

Post by sureaboutthis »

nottorp wrote: post #610
sureaboutthis wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SO has NEVER been a forum. That's where most people are confused. It has NEVER been a platform for open discussion.

Perhaps, but it was more useful when they didn't enforce that. My recent experience with SO is: i reach it via googling a problem or feature, I find a question describing my problem that is closed because of being a duplicate of... ... except the other question isn't a duplicate in subtle ways and has nothing to do with my problem. I've also seen moderators encouraging people to post answers as code ready to copy pas…

I'm not aware of any moderators encouraging that and I specifically target such answers for deletion. I have complained that there are some new users who ask for such things and I will be the first to jump on them for doing so.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#708

Post by GyYZTfWBfQw »

Mithaldu wrote: post #705
GyYZTfWBfQw wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "kind" and define "better for everyone".

If you don't know the meaning of those yet, save your energy for the day when you do.

This is not an argument, nor a definition. To save you the "energy", I'll remind you of the fact that these terms are extremely subjective. If you know what's "better for everyone" please share it with me, because I would like to know so I could act accordingly. I would also like you to tell me the means through which you came to that conclusion.

Failure to provide me with the necessary information will, in my opinion, confirm that what you were doing is just mere virtue signalling.

I believe it would be better for everyone if you told me what you believe[1] is better for everyone, so everyone who reads your comment might act accordingly in the best interest of others[2].

[1] Note that it's subjective.

[2] Where "best interest of others" is defined by you, which is subjective and probably inaccurate. On what basis do you have the nerve to claim you know what's better for everyone "involved"?

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#709

Post by forapurpose »

chris_wot wrote: post #706
ruirr wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not get out of my way to talk about his command of English, he is the one mentioning it about problems in other forums. I am not native, however if in an English forum, I will have to talk English. Otherwise, nothing prevents me from selecting forums in a language I am more proficient. Beware of the extremism in being politically correct. The truth will always be the truth.

What I think you fail to understand is that there are many, many native-English speakers who cannot write properly and have bad grammar and spelling. This is not just a non-native English speaker issue. I think if the intent of the speaker is to answer a question and they can be understood reasonably well, but their English is not perfect, then we should give them some slack.

> we should give them some slack

I appreciate the spirit of the parent, but I think even that message starts with the wrong premise. It assumes that the group with high proficiency in English ("we") decides whether or not to welcome others with low proficiency ("them").

In fact, the commenter several levels up is as much a member of HN as you and I. The guidelines for contributions are not about English proficiency, but about intellectual value. We want more members making more valuable contributions. If they misspell every word and break every grammar rule, it doesn't matter as long as I can understand them and the comment contributes something.

What is outside the guidelines is one commeter criticizing another's language, especially using words like "atrocious". That comment contributes nothing of intellectual value to HN.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#710

Post by forapurpose »

ruirr wrote: post #701
waydowntogo wrote: post #274

I tried answer questions the best way I could and I had nice respond from asker mostly like it BUT there was almost everytime some smartass (with higher points than me and voted down my answer) who had some problem with that - bad words or word-order (i'm not kinding); too short answer etc. So I left. I wanted share my knowlidge but they didn't wanted them. Now admins/owners are crying. Just epic!

As a non-English living in a country where English is not even an official language, I strive to write good quality answers, either technically or in grammar. A good answer takes an investment of time to write. If someone is not willing to take some time to correct the English and research an answer, it is natural low-quality answers are not welcomed. It takes less work answering them ourselves than improving bad ans…

To reduce redundancy:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16947508

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