Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change • Hacker News Board

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#421

Post by flippyhead » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 2:12 AM UTC

warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

Same! I'm definitely qualified to answer some of the questions and for some reason actually willing to do so but totally gave up investing my time in doing so after a couple of similar experiences.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#422

Post by closeparen » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 2:18 AM UTC

CM30 wrote: post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

I think the idea is that someone who feels less secure in their place in the programming community may be more powerfully affected by the same level of hostility than a nerdy middle-class white guy who grew up in gamer/internet culture and feels it’s his birthright. It takes a certain sense of entitlement to continue to participate in a community that rebukes you.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#423

Post by stankypickle » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 2:22 AM UTC

This is just all sorts of ass backward rhetoric that misses the point of Stack Overflow. People don't go to SO expecting emotional support. They expect answers to their questions.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#424

Post by 6nf » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 2:24 AM UTC

your-nanny wrote: post #395

CM30 wrote: post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

Do you think that a minority needs to be identified as such to feel unwelcome in a community? That is the premise of your rebuttal

If someone is being treated badly on SO - but there's no way to know the race or gender of that person, how can you say the bad treatment is because of their race or gender?

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#425

Post by sureaboutthis » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 2:28 AM UTC

I thoroughly disagree that SO is hostile to "everyone". I've been there for nearly nine years and find that the only people who complain about such things, as listed here, are those who never took "The Tour" and aren't aware of the rules for asking and answering questions as out lined in the Help Center.

I rarely ask questions anymore but, when I did, they have never been downvoted or questioned because ... I follow the rules ... but too many people come their and treat it like a forum (it's not) or like (shudder) reddit. That's when they get themselves into trouble.

I'm a high rep user and visit every day. I don't answer many questions anymore because, nowadays, they are mostly about canned software (CMS, frameworks, etc.) and not real programming. So I help clean things up and I'm one of those guys who lets you know when you've violated the rules. "Can someone give me teh codez?" is my favorite. Believe it or not, it gets asked every day and I help close at least three every day.

And I get irritated.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#426

Post by lanbanger » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 2:29 AM UTC

I recently had one of my questions that "Closed - opinion based" six years after I asked it, and received several useful answers.

I consider StackOverflow read-only these days, it's years since I've bothered to ask anything, and I definitely don't bother to answer anything.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#427

Post by chx » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 2:34 AM UTC

And this doesn't talk about how smaller StackExchange communities become a toxic fiefdom of their moderators.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#428

Post by vokep » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 2:36 AM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #122

notatoad wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's significant though that both wikipedia and stack overflow, despite being ruled by petty assholes weilding the smallest amount of power in seemingly the stupidest way possible, have become two of the most valuable references in existence. Do toxic communities produce better content?

I would argue there are way too many variables in that question to present a strong argument either way. One thing I will say on it though is how much of our humanity are we ready to sacrifice on the altar of this mythical "meritocracy" that every online community, especially those built on or around code, seems to aim for? And how long until we're ready to confront the fact that a lot of these meritocracies strangel…

>I'm not getting into either side of it, I'm just saying that you have to admit it's an astonishing coincidence that online communities, started by, moderated by, largely inhabited by, and currently operated by white men seemingly always have a cadre of white men on the top as the "most valuable contributors" and nobody ever seems to wonder if all those things are connected.

Of course these things are connected, everything is. It isn't an astonishing coincidence at all, its the exact expected result given the environment.

Why does the color/gender matter? Flip it universally and do you feel the same way?

"When roles are reversed,

opinions are too"

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#429

Post by lambda » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 2:40 AM UTC

warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

I'm a high-scoring user who has been put off by this exact behavior. The problem is, the behavior is pervasive among other high scoring users, and whenever I advocate against this kind of behavior, I get a whole bunch of pushback about it.

No one seems to want to change. No one seems to want to even engage with criticism about the culture; they just push back and pile on when criticism is brought up.

After a couple times of seeing this kind of behavior, and pushing back, and then getting piled on by people rejecting the criticism, I started to get tired of it and withdrawing somewhat. Later on, I some blatant sexism in a chatroom that was laughed off when I pointed it out to the moderators.

I've pretty much given up. I'll occasionally reply to questions people ask on my existing answers or if I see something that needs an answer or edit I'll make it, but I don't really feel like fighting the overwhelmingly elitist, sexist, and uncaring attitude on the site.

I think that this post is a nice gesture, and good that it's coming from the company and not just another user, but I worry that's it's much too late. The community has been attracting people who like it the way it is, and repelling people like me who don't, for a long time.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#430

Post by b_t_s » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 2:44 AM UTC

psyc wrote: post #354

sigstoat wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the core problem is that they've focused too much on being like wikipedia (a single authoritative, comprehensive answer to each important question), and not enough on helping people to learn. Over time a site will grow a culture, and experts on the site will outweigh and overrule experts on the subject matter. In this case, we're also seeing answerers' needs outweigh askers'. there's also the third, silent,…

I'm in that third group because I perceive SO as a 'no good deed goes unpunished' culture. I already went through that with Wikipedia, and I've got better things to do than fight insiders.

truestory. I've been doing this for 2 decades and I've only ever posted one question on SO because it was super obscure technical thing that was totally un-googleable. I know not to ask anything less obscure. For community and "normal" questions there's reddit. I also only answer questions on reddit. I know there's prestige and it's good resume material to answer on SO, but reddit is a community whereas SO is documentation. Answering on SO is too aggravating.