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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#391

Post by bitL »

jsmeaton wrote: post #386
bitL wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make a Deep Learning bot inserting whatever ornamentation of sentences you like. You can choose multiple styles and personalize for whatever makes you feel good. Why require one single standard from everyone? The answer that was "offensive" was just a standard dry answer like you hear at any top university everywhere; I found "(brutal) exercise is left to the reader" way more offensive.

No one claimed the answer was offensive. It's unnecessarily condescending though. If you, as a senior developer, spoke to a junior developer on their first day at a new job in the same way, they'd be very unlikely to come to you for help in the future. Learning how to interpret error messages and extract the important information is a skill . What may seem obvious to you may not be obvious to someone with barely any…

I had gazillion encounters when senior engineers/managers were unbelievably condescending, especially when they saw a capable competitor in you. The keyword is resilience, are you going to gain this virtue, or are you going to complain everywhere and cry on all available shoulders, and then once you get what you wanted, start backstabbing anyone that helped you to keep them down and forget about what put you there? I was one of those "useful idiots" that was helping to my utmost capacity others, wasting time I could have spent working on bigger projects helping humanity. Every single case when those people got what they wanted stopped recognizing me and called me only when they needed something. I am no longer than person.

If you really want something, work on it to the full extent of your own capabilities, get ready to be beaten from left and right and figure out how to move forward. Don't expect help from around you. When somebody shows generosity to you, treat it as a wonderful bonus you try to return somehow someday, not a requirement.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#392

Post by megaman22 »

wheelie_boy wrote: post #283
wwweston wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to stop answering certain questions, and only address "well asked" questions. I love Stack Overflow, and it's sure a valuable if imperfect resource, but this is something that drives me bonkers about it. If the question is intelligible enough to receive an answer, and if your answer is potentially helpful to the asker, then…

I think the core problem is that they've focused too much on being like wikipedia (a single authoritative, comprehensive answer to each important question), and not enough on helping people to learn. Over time a site will grow a culture, and experts on the site will outweigh and overrule experts on the subject matter. In this case, we're also seeing answerers' needs outweigh askers'. If you could only meet the needs…

They tried running the documentation site for a while, but as far as I can tell it's already shuttered.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#393

Post by alexbeloi »

CM30 wrote: post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

>> especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.

>But this isn't true.

What do you make of their statement that "Many people, especially those in marginalized groups do feel less welcome. We know because they tell us."?

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#394

Post by [deleted] »

jakear wrote: post #200
CM30 wrote: post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

Totally agree. While I do think “newer coders” may very likely feel unwelcome, as an extension of the elitism issue, there’s no mechanism by which “people of color”, “women”, or “minorities” can even be identified... I fear people are subconsciously correlating these groups with “less able coders”. Obviously this correlation serves only to damage.

[deleted]

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#395

Post by your-nanny »

CM30 wrote: post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

Do you think that a minority needs to be identified as such to feel unwelcome in a community? That is the premise of your rebuttal

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#396

Post by LeoNatan25 »

Jill_the_Pill wrote: post #334
AdeptusAquinas wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If people don't even know what gender you are/what color your skin is, can they actually be intentionally racist/sexist towards you? Not directly, but often indirectly since in such a situation it is common to assume you are a white male. That's a bit off-putting if you are not one, but you might put up with it rather than clarifying your gender/race if doing so opens you up to a risk of direct sexism/racism

I use my initial on SE to conceal my gender, and I am usually assumed to be male in third-person references.

Does that matter on a site like SO? I usually use “they” not to assume gender, but does it really bother you if someone assumes male?

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#397

Post by your-nanny »

ben509 wrote: post #208
CM30 wrote: post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

> Trying to make this about minorities feels like a desperate attempt to fit in with the 'social justice' sphere, and to virtue signal to people on sites like Twitter. I'd rather look at the merits. If I recognize a good idea, I'm going to signal that I'm on board with it, so virtue signaling in itself is, at worst, a bit gauche. The reason I'd avoid making these things about social justice is that it's very hard to…

I agree that it can deepen divisions, but ignoring the issue doesn't make it go away. Not sure what to do.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#398

Post by your-nanny »

psyc wrote: post #362
CM30 wrote: post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

Not the point. It isn't that SO is meaner to marginalized people because SO knows who they are. It's that marginalized people are more sensitive to being excluded, and less likely to voluntarily endure the hazing.

On point.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#399

Post by [deleted] »

mr_toad wrote: post #346
squeaky-clean wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how your [1] has 2 opposing opinions as the top comments, both at exactly 147 points. > Whats wrong with hi or thanks? Boy what is this world coming to. Mundane mutes who just want answers. > Kill it with fire. You want to do social you get on Facebook. :) I like the questions just to be questions (without any noise).

I think they want to discourage people begging for answers, along the lines of ‘please help or I’ll get fired and my wife will leave me and my kids will starve.’ And to some people, saying ‘thanks’ before anyone has agreed to help sounds passive-aggressive. Like those notes in the workplace kitchen that feign gratitude for ordering you to do something.

[deleted]

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#400

Post by jsmeaton »

bitL wrote: post #391
jsmeaton wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one claimed the answer was offensive. It's unnecessarily condescending though. If you, as a senior developer, spoke to a junior developer on their first day at a new job in the same way, they'd be very unlikely to come to you for help in the future. Learning how to interpret error messages and extract the important information is a skill . What may seem obvious to you may not be obvious to someone with barely any…

I had gazillion encounters when senior engineers/managers were unbelievably condescending, especially when they saw a capable competitor in you. The keyword is resilience, are you going to gain this virtue, or are you going to complain everywhere and cry on all available shoulders, and then once you get what you wanted, start backstabbing anyone that helped you to keep them down and forget about what put you there? I…

> If you really want something, work on it to the full extent of your own capabilities, get ready to be beaten from left and right and figure out how to move forward. Don't expect help from around you.

This should not be an expectation of the world, and I'm sorry you've had the experiences you've had to see it as such. This is exactly what people are complaining about when they say tech is hostile. It's not just hostile to minorities, it can be hostile to everybody.

We can choose to do unto others, or we can choose to break that cycle and be more welcoming. If you're unable to do this on stackoverflow, then may I suggest you don't participate.

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