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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#281

Post by crispinb »

notatoad wrote: post #84
lainga wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same situation as Wikipedia: Absolute power corrupts absolutely - but so does a small, petty amount.

I think it's significant though that both wikipedia and stack overflow, despite being ruled by petty assholes weilding the smallest amount of power in seemingly the stupidest way possible, have become two of the most valuable references in existence. Do toxic communities produce better content?

> have become two of the most valuable references in existence

Well I'm not sure about that. Wikipedia is the better of the two, but that's a low bar. Articles are poorly written, inconsistent, and targeted at wildly variable levels of existing knowledge. I rarely use it for anything other quick lookups of trivial facts (and even then only for unimportant purposes). It's much-visited, but that's an indicator only of ubiquitous availability. I remember long ago reading some study or other comparing its quality favourably to old-fashioned encyclopedias, but it was just a fairly risible surface fact-checking operation. Of course Wikipedia is huge so there may be vast areas of excellent quality unrelated to my interests.

SO is worse, but a little more useful because of its narrower scope.

So, no, IMO toxicity of community and quality of output aren't related (in either direction).

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#283

Post by wheelie_boy »

wwweston wrote: post #181
warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

> Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to stop answering certain questions, and only address "well asked" questions. I love Stack Overflow, and it's sure a valuable if imperfect resource, but this is something that drives me bonkers about it. If the question is intelligible enough to receive an answer, and if your answer is potentially helpful to the asker, then…

I think the core problem is that they've focused too much on being like wikipedia (a single authoritative, comprehensive answer to each important question), and not enough on helping people to learn. Over time a site will grow a culture, and experts on the site will outweigh and overrule experts on the subject matter. In this case, we're also seeing answerers' needs outweigh askers'.

If you could only meet the needs of one constituency, I'd say they made the right choice to favor expert answerers, but I think there are other solutions.

Specifically, if I was trying to fix this I'd set up a two-tier system for questions and answers. There are lots of people who would be happy to answer questions, even if the question is a dupe, and even if it's not framed very well. Give people points for answering these in a kind way, and moderate around that.

For questions that are sufficiently well-asked, and not duplicates, elevate them to a wikipedia-like status: allow them to be indexed by search engines, make them easier to see by the expert answerers that dislike sifting through novice questions, and moderate them for quality. Give points for people that review and elevate high-quality, non-duplicate questions, or that edit questions to become high-quality.

If there are very different personas that you're trying to appease, sometimes a multi-tier system is appropriate.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#284

Post by manigandham »

galacticpony2 wrote: post #273
manigandham wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have less tolerance, how is that anyone else's problem? Some people are also more prone to sunburn than others, but we don't say the sun needs to be less bright. You are in control of your own feelings. Yes, StackOverflow should generally have better language and reworked rules around content, voting and moderation, but that has nothing to do with how susceptible you are to comments on the internet. Also why i…

> If you have less tolerance, how is that anyone else's problem? Call me a radical, but people should have a modicum of social responsibility towards each other. > Some people are also more prone to sunburn than others, but we don't say the sun needs to be less bright. Luckily, we don't need to, having invented sunscreen. > You are in control of your own feelings. No you're not. Feelings are sneaky that way. > Also w…

Exactly, if you are more prone to sunburn, wear more sunscreen. Same as handling your own feelings.

And yes, feelings are completely in your head. Things happen in the world and your mind reacts a certain way. Nobody else knows how you will react nor do they have any control of your consciousness.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#285

Post by flas9sd »

I'm sure if the aggregation of all gathered points in user-profiles will be abandoned or "toned down", some of the powerplay will cede, because it will be about good answers only and helping each other out, not personalities. I benefit from that community alot, thank you to everybody who is contributing.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#286

Post by mehrdadn »

typomatic wrote: post #224
CM30 wrote: post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

> But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems to be a disdain towards newer members in general, not ones from any particular group. Almost everyone on SO uses a variation of their real name. I suspect you are a smart enough person to know that that is far more than enough to engage in racial and sexual discrimination.

> Almost everyone on SO uses a variation of their real name. I suspect you are a smart enough person to know that that is far more than enough to engage in racial and sexual discrimination.

Note: A significant chunk of them, yes, but not almost everyone, as far as I know. Looking just at the front page right now, out of the 96 users, I see 7 users whose name begins with "user" (like "user2141351"), at least 13 who have names like "xyz" or "NRA" or "SSB" or "BmyGuest" or "saladi" etc... that's at least 20% of my sample.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#287

Post by mike00632 »

yellowapple wrote: post #94
weberc2 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that SO has an arrogance problem and the diversity appeal is pandering, but the "trash fire" characterization is too hyperbolic. The site is still immensely useful if suboptimal.

It's only "immensely useful" if you seek the solution to a problem that's already been solved (and actually solved, not just happening to share a few keywords with a different problem and thus marked as a duplicate). If your problem has not yet been solved (especially if it's similar enough to another problem to look like a "duplicate" to someone who does not actually understand the problem), then "trash fire" is hyp…

This comment is being deleted. Your account is downvoted and restricted from posting additional comments. Reason: "hypobolic" is too similar to "hyperbolic". Next time use the search function and avoid posting redundant comments.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#288

Post by [deleted] »

manigandham wrote: post #149
mistersquid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is a beautifully written and well-considered reply. As someone who has had both academic and career success (and failures), I know I am capable as a developer and able to contribute meaningfully to technical discussions. As a person of color, however, I have also experienced harassment by police, suspicious looks from shop owners, and outright hostility from drunken young men. So, whenever I encounter what appe…

How does that work if the usernames are anonymous? Saying you feel targeted does not mean you are being targeted.

[deleted]

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#289

Post by gonehome »

warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

Yeah it's a weird mix of helpful content moderated by an irritating hall monitor like community wielding power and making changes nobody wants.

I've been frustrated when trying to contribute - you'll have two people helping each other and then some third party comes in and declares it not valuable, incorrectly says something is a duplicate, or starts deleting things for arbitrary reasons.

I just want the moderators to go away and leave us alone, it also makes me think stack overflow is successful in spite of this - not because of it.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#290

Post by MrEldritch »

metalliqaz wrote: post #19

From the linked article: > Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups Breaking that down... "...people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place..." This is obvious just by looking at the discussions that happen here, or, even by observing the SO-related memes that bubble up to the top of Red…

I think there's a pretty plausible answer here - StackOverflow is hostile to everyone, and that means people who already feel insecure or burdened by impostor syndrome or like they have to struggle to be recognized - even if they're not technically being treated any worse - end up experiencing that hostility and intimidating attitude even more.
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