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Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#701

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Doesn't that apply equally to any shared hosting?

It applies to any shared hosting with servers in in the US that operates above a certain scale; yes. What that certain scale is who knows, but github the most visible hosting service so is certain to be above it. Github is great for my open source work. Everyone's allowed to see that code, even the NSA. However you can find source to LOIC on github. I'm sure that who put that there and who worked on it when would be…

Yeah, because the NSA can't do anything about the service run by 2 guys in Germany.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#702
post #249

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And I, as a male, try not to stare at anybody because I'm not a fucking asshole.

If someone is rendering a public performance, aren't you supposed to look at it? When does hula hooping in a public space transfer to a public performance? Is it public immediately because it's in plain sight? Does it only become public after an audience gathers and the hula hooper continues to hula hoop? What if someone sees the gathered audience and joins in so that they won't be considered rude for not taking inte…

Yeah. I think everything up to that point was inexcusable. Horvath wasn't really doing any justice to an already strong case by feeling offense for the sake of others. If it was just basic hula hooping, I'm not quite sure what would be interesting, but both music and movement are distracting. If it wasn't an attempt to perform, it was probably a distracting display. Hell, I'd probably be on the bench too, waiting for my turn! There's no need to assume this was sexual and I think Horvath may have been projecting her horrible experiences onto these new colleagues.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#703

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I don't think it creates a 'hostile' atmosphere per say. Obviously if both parties are alight with the situation then it's fine for them. I think it's an inappropriate one for a workplace though. This comes down to company culture. The problem isn't the women hula hooping, a casual environment means such things will happen. People will exercise together, work on hobbies, etc. The problem is that in a work environment…

> To draw a parallel, if 7 out of 10 people at the office were having nerf gun fights, and it was disrupting other peoples work (because they are reflexively duck, etc) to the point where they can't work when there aren’t big nerf gun fights (but still one or two shots every now and then), then it's a problem, and destructive to a good work environment. This is where management needs to step in and say, "ok guys, I k…

Well I was using it as more of a 30 out of a 100 outliers.

I'm saying (and this is where the parallel breaks down a little) that if people want to have an epic nerf gun fight it should probably be scheduled, and out of the work place/time (like during launch, or after 5pm or something. And this is where it breaks down. Nerf gun fights are fine, but creating an environment that discriminates or (equivalently) encourages discrimination is never ok). They both distract many of the employees trying to work (i.e. the ones not involved in the discrimination/nerf gun fights), and it being able to break out randomly at any time is a massive continual distraction.

To continue the analogy. Consider an employee is doing their own thing to relax (as opposed to nerf gun fights), perhaps they aren’t quite a company culture fit (since they don't like nerf guns) and they choose to do some hoola hooping, but almost every time they go to do that, they get pelted with crossfire from nerf guns, making it difficult to do their own relaxing thing.

Now the other side (with the github environment with hola hooping women): Consider an employee is doing their own thing to relax (as opposed to hoola hooping), perhaps they aren’t quite a company culture fit (since they aren't interested in women. And for that matter, are a woman) and they choose to do some yoga, but almost every time they go to do that, a bunch of guys start gawking at them, making it difficult to do their own relaxing thing.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#704
post #660

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I seriously hope you consider rethinking this position. There are a tremendous number of incredible women in the world, and most of them are not looking for a sugar daddy. Many women also work hard for their careers, passions, or some combination of both, and understand that both success and failure happen. I will also say that in many instances, if you have this opinion about women (or any group of persons), it's pr…

What advantages would marriage provide over a non-legal partnership? The latter seems to carry all of the benefits of marriage without any of the risks.

That's a fair question. I think the biggest benefit would be the recognition of commitment, both by the partners, their families, coworkers, etc., zooming out ad infinitum. It can make a lot of things easier, from a practical perspective--for example, in my line of work there are a lot of couples (shared drive and passion, assortative mating), and employers will often create a second job for the spouse of a person they really want to hire. I think that sort of similar things can apply in other situations. If you, say, want to see your partner in the hospital or have certain other rights it's easier if you're legally bound to said partner.

See the recent arguments about same-sex marriage for a fulsome discussion...

I chose marriage, because I was really f'ing excited about calling my partner my wife. Now, I am really proud to call her that. Note that financially, she is far more well-off than me, but we have similar lifetime earnings potential. YMMV.

Edited: grammar.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#705

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I was getting really confused by all the uses of "partner". Is she a lesbian is that it? I would they could just say girlfriend so I would know what was going on.

Its not 1995 anymore. "Partner" is a perfectly correct term for any couple in a long-term relationship. I use the term "partner" quite frequently to refer to my relationship—and whether I'm gay or not, or whether Ms Horvath is so, is none of your business. You have no need, nor any inherent right, to "know what is going on."

my confusion is the term "partner" has a completely different meaning in a a business context. I am just saying that it was confusing to me. For much of the article I thought every time they said "partner" they were referring to an employee who worked with her in some sort of group or buddy system. It can also obviously mean a partial owner in the business.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#706

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It really surprises me that somebody can get away with such destructive behaviour as reverting someone else's commits without reasonable cause. What justification is there for not firing on the spot anybody who puts their own personal vendettas over the good of the project?

At Sun, where there was a structured management chain, there was a time when one of the folks in my group reverted a big chunk of changes I had committed, and I went to our common manager and demanded satisfaction. The response was 'if we left them in he threatened to quit, there isn't anything we can do', and the only conclusion from that statement was that if one of us quit, the manager would rather it were me than…

And thus "threatening to quit" becomes the way for the crazy dudes to get whatever they want.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#707
post #652

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But you live in the UK, which is still part of Europe, where people are still people that have rights. Your only right in the USA is the right to leave.

you live in the UK where people are still people that have rights The right to be sued for libel whenever they write something that someone else doesn't like?

Actually, we have no written Constitution, and very little in the way of actual rights in the sense that if a Constable asks us to move or go home or to search our bags, we have to let them.

Employment rights however are slightly better. The employee interviewed in the OA would have recourse to an employment tribunal for what used to be called 'constructive dismissal' - the terminology may have changed recently. The monetary compensation would be quite basic by Valley standards, but the public exposure of the employers, subject to cross-examination, would be most satisfying I imagine.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#708
post #400

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because in an office environment you can at least expect your coworkers to show a bit of respect?

When your office environment involves hula-hooping but doesn't sell hula-hoops, you've already thrown office decorum in the toilet. I say good luck in getting horrible people to restrain their stupid impulses in an environment like that.

Yup. "Would you please be respectful and not hula hoop in the office? Thanks."

"What a hostile environment that coworkers tell me to not hula hoop in the office!"

You can't win with some people or environments.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#709
This is a really important issue to talk about, not so much because of the sexism/female engineers angle, but because it deals with how start-ups are managed.

TL;DR 1. Have legacy documents, guidelines and policies in place 2. GitHub needs to have a look within its management team and decide if they want to continue eating themselves to oblivion. 3. Similar to the hacker code of ethics, we need to work on getting MORE people into technology. We should not be excluding people out of technology!

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#710
post #253

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> This is, sadly, the best thing to do because you don't know who is going to take offense. Then excessive avoidance gets reinterpreted as snobbishness, sexism, not wanting to be inclusive, and so on. "Men actively avoid me and sit father away during meetings, they don't invite me for beers after works, it is a hostile environment". Anyway it is a fine line. And one can interpret a lot of behaviors as stemming from s…

No, it's not a fine line at all. There is a huge chasm between ogling someone undertaking physical activity and excessively avoiding them. You probably behave toward your male colleagues in a way that would fit neatly somewhere between these two extremes. Is it particularly a US issue, this inability to behave like a grown-up at work? In the UK, in my experience, men and women tend to work together, on an equal footi…

> There is a huge chasm between ogling someone undertaking physical activity

If anyone -- attractive man, unattractive man, attractive woman, unattractive woman -- started hula-hooping in the middle of the office I would expect people to stare. Not because it's sexual, but because it's peculiar. The gap between "stare" and "ogle" is hardly objective, let alone a "chasm."

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