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Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#591

Post by wcummings »

nailer wrote: post #568
alxjrvs wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"PC, overprotective upbringing, and I'm offended by that" are not some new horrible plague - they are attempts to let underprivileged voices and opinions survive. When a black person says that they are proud to be black, they are expressing that they feel a certain pride in their race, which exists in this country thus far as a marginalized and underprivileged set of humanity. Saying you are "Proud to be white" kind…

> because white people have crafted a society to let them have more advantage. Thinking of 'white' as a single group of people who are always middle class is a fantastically ignorant thing to do. Does the white kid whose parents are Ukrainian janitors deserves a leg up less than the black kid whose parents are an English professor and a photographer?

People frequently confuse class and race. We should really be thinking about the former (though obviously the two are related to a degree).

Full disclosure: my grandfather was an uneducated Ukrainian immigrant (:

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#592

Post by krallja »

AgathaTheWitch wrote: post #558

I'm not the first to mention it but for me the big issue is the wife having access to private company information. That type of thing really does make me start thinking about Bitbucket (any other good alternatives dudes?). I don't see a ton of sexism here though. A developer removing her code because she didn't want to date him isn't sexism. It's unprofessional as hell and possibly a fireable offense depending on the…

> any other good alternatives dudes?

Come try Fog Creek Software's Kiln!

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#593

Post by LeafyGreenbriar »

robobro wrote: post #316

Hmmm. Here's my 2 cents. Every office has "that person" who causes/gets involved in drama, starts pointless arguments, or refuses to cooperate. Let's assume, just for entertainment' sake, that she got bored of working there, and asked herself, what looks better on my resume? Worked at GitHub, got bored/wanted a higher salary/wanted to do less work, left... or worked at GitHub and got bullied out of the marketplace fo…

> This is one of the few fields left in tech where men outnumber / outperform women

Outnumber, yes, but outperform? You seem to be implying that female developers are worse at their jobs than their male counterparts, which is terribly unfair.

> How are we supposed to respond to this sort of problem?

We shouldn't respond by assuming she made it all up. Yes, we need to give GitHub an opportunity to respond to these allegations, but Julie Ann Horvath is a well-respected member of the tech community, and we need to take her complaints seriously.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#594

Post by wsc981 »

shadowmint wrote: post #371
sgentle wrote: post #235

Ouch. What a terrible situation. I'm holding out for the other side of the story, but unless you're willing to assume the entire thing is invented this is a major fuckup for GitHub. I think this is a classic problem with companies making the transition from small startup to regular business. Break down the barriers! Flat management! Kill bureaucracy and embrace no-politics DIY organisation! The article reads like an…

I've always been broadly under the impression that the HR department was a waste of air, but I suppose conflict resolution is perhaps something they'd be useful for. ...maybe.

The main job of HR is prevent the company from entering lawsuits with (former) employees. Anything else is just window dressing. Most HR organizations like to act like they are an impartial judge in conflict situations, but they're on the company payroll after all.

So while for a single employee HR might seem like a waste of air, it's elementary for any business with a reasonable number of employees.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#595

Post by discardorama »

I'm curious about the "hula hoop" issue that Julie is referring to. As a male nerd, I will admit that my social skills are a bit lacking. However: I don't see the problem with staring at women who are putting on a show which is clearly unrelated to their work.

If 2 women started making out in the break room, I'm ashamed to say that I might just linger longer than usual.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#596

Post by tomp »

achompas wrote: post #575
tomp wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to me it makes sense why this scene would be triggering for her It makes sense to me as well, but if I were her boss, I would ask her to take a more professional and less emotional perspective of the workplace (of course, after (hopefully having her problems presented in a clear manner and) solving the other issues that were causing her to feel unwelcome).

This is the core problem, though: it's difficult (impossible?) for someone to be professional when everyone around them is so unprofessional. Worse still when none of their claims are fully addressed by management. There was no resolution here. I don't blame her for taking these steps to out Github.

That only more reason to be extremely professional - noone can blame anything on you. Or maybe it's just my viewpoint of the world, but I would take the most defensive route possible, and use the experience to my advantage (learn as much as possible, gain relevant & valuable experience, eject into another company as high as possible).

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#597

Post by karmajunkie »

thefreeman wrote: post #438
iwasphone wrote: post #19

> Horvath then told her partner, also a GitHub employee... Protip: don't dip your pen in the company ink.

I was getting really confused by all the uses of "partner". Is she a lesbian is that it? I would they could just say girlfriend so I would know what was going on.

Its not 1995 anymore. "Partner" is a perfectly correct term for any couple in a long-term relationship. I use the term "partner" quite frequently to refer to my relationship—and whether I'm gay or not, or whether Ms Horvath is so, is none of your business. You have no need, nor any inherent right, to "know what is going on."

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#598

Post by tomp »

ZoF wrote: post #517
einhverfr wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The founder's wife story also reminds me of episodes I've heard involving the wife cabal. It's nothing as sinister as the GitHub story, but I see a lot of the same structural issues reflected in these telling anecdotes. If you are male and a founder, one of your most valuable business resources is your wife. People will call me sexist for saying this, I expect, but women think socially with a level of complexity th…

This post really bothers me somehow. Edit: Figured out why. I don't understand why saying, "people will call me sexist for this" immediately validates your statement as "not intended to be sexist". >"If you are male and a founder, one of your most valuable business resources is your wife. People will call me sexist for saying this, I expect, but women think socially with a level of complexity that I think most men ne…

> Does that entire paragraph not just objectify the wife

Objectify is a really overused term that has lost all relevant meaning. How can saying that someone is better than you at something possibly objectify that person? Maybe I'm overly sensible as well, but it's really sad that this is where PC has led us.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#599

Post by gphilip »

testrun wrote: post #300
klodolph wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a very common way to dismiss complaints of sexism, whether those complaints are valid or invalid. Could someone explain why? I remember an similar complaint against a woman who said she was groped at a conference. What, is she expected to get a video of him groping her? There's a reason why so much sexism happens behind closed doors, off the record, or just in person when nobody else is nearby. These…

Did you read your own sentence before posting? >>This seems like a very common way to dismiss complaints of sexism, whether those complaints are valid or invalid If the person has an invalid complaint, it means she is lying and there is no sexism. So yes, you do need both sides of the story.

> Did you read your own sentence before posting?

What does this question add to the discussion?

> So yes, you do need both sides of the story.

In particular, one should not dismiss a complaint of sexism before hearing both sides of the story. This is what the GP seems to be saying as well.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#600

Post by microjesus »

lancewiggs wrote: post #234
MarkTee wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what the day-to-day is like at GitHub, but if people were hula-hooping to music at my place of work, I'd probably be pretty interested in watching them too (male or female).

It's not what or whether they were watching, it's how they were watching. It's a judgement call but pretty easy to tell if a group is leering or just watching friends have fun.

What really concerns me; is why she was watching them watch.
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