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Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#411
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even more so, it is the sexual attractiveness of the guys who are watching.

are you implying that if it had been an attractive male watching the females, there wouldn't have been any complaint, despite being leered at?

Not by the hula hoopers

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#412
post #20

Two women are dancing to music at work in a tech company and the author compares this to a scene at a strip club as men are watching this. Unless this was a regular exercise, what was everybody expecting? Nobody taking notice?

And Dave Chapelle walked out of a $50 million contract because something normal (a couple of white guys laughing at a funny skit) rubbed him the wrong way. Sometimes a seemingly normal occurrence can pierce through one's facade of denial so sharply that the toxicity of the environment becomes inescapably apparent. And then what are you supposed to do? Pretend like nothing matters? Hello existential crisis.

It's fine if she doesn't like men oogling hoola hoopers. That's a personal preference. It's another thing to turn that into a general discussion of sexism and claiming at the same time that all men are rapists waiting to happen (which the "feeling unsafe" bit seems to imply).

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#413

Probably worth mentioning that the hula hoop dancing happened at a Github party with a lot of people not from Github. It was also super badass hula hooping, not just regular dancing. Everyone was looking, men and women, because it was pretty awesome.

This info makes the last item of the article even more bizarre. I'm starting to think this was reported inaccurately by TC. Maybe she was really referring to a separate incident that happened at the hula dancing event, an incident we don't have any information about. Otherwise, this makes no sense.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#414

Ouch. What a terrible situation. I'm holding out for the other side of the story, but unless you're willing to assume the entire thing is invented this is a major fuckup for GitHub. I think this is a classic problem with companies making the transition from small startup to regular business. Break down the barriers! Flat management! Kill bureaucracy and embrace no-politics DIY organisation! The article reads like an…

I've always been broadly under the impression that the HR department was a waste of air, but I suppose conflict resolution is perhaps something they'd be useful for. ...maybe.

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#415
post #20

Two women are dancing to music at work in a tech company and the author compares this to a scene at a strip club as men are watching this. Unless this was a regular exercise, what was everybody expecting? Nobody taking notice?

It wasn't just people noticing them from their desks (or joining them, for the sake of well-humoured fun). It was, as she says, "line of men sitting on one bench facing the hoopers and gawking at them". I would find that a bit odd.

I would find women doing hoola hoop in the office a bit odd. Maybe it really depends on the company culture, but I don't see how either things could be called inherently sexist or threatening.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#416
post #400
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... doing things that might be nice to look at is not an invitation to check them out doing it Then why do any of those things in a non-private setting with reasonable expectation of gawkers being present?

because in an office environment you can at least expect your coworkers to show a bit of respect?

'Respect' is a pretty loaded word. Are you saying the guys staring at (fellow employee) girls hula-hooping in the same office should just close their eyes? What if the girls were just sitting, drinking coffee? What about juggling 6 balls on the air? What about picking their noses? What about picking each-others noses?

Where does this nonsense end? If (almost) all my co-workers are staring at me as I adjust my belt, standing in the middle of the lunch room, I will do that activity in the confines of a men's room next time. If the same thing happens as I stretch my leg muscles before a run, I will do that activity outside. Why is it my co-workers' fault if they stare at me if I do something that is not the norm?

If being merely 'looked at' troubles you, then you need to look at yourself before closing others' eyes.

"Why are you uncomfortable?", should not be that hard a question to answer, clearly and succinctly, for something that evokes such a strong response from you.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#417
post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always been broadly under the impression that the HR department was a waste of air, but I suppose conflict resolution is perhaps something they'd be useful for. ...maybe.

HR, legal, finance and IT are all unpopular for the same reason: it's part of their job to stop you doing things that may get the company in trouble later. Of course, this means they may be at times too conservative in the interests of having an easy life. Doesn't mean they're not useful at all.

I find myself almost perpetually annoyed by the bureaucratic arms of big organisations, HR and IT in particular, but what you've written is, in my view, a (terrible ;-)) truth.

I think a balance of conservative and progressive opinion is required for almost any organisation to operate effectively: (genunie) progressives drive us forward, and (genuine) conservatives stop us going over the cliff - it is pretty much as simple as that. Unfortunately, finding the appropriate balance for any particular situation can be extremely tricky, so largely we get it wrong, and just stumble along, grumbling to ourselves about how stupid and ineffective everything is.

On the assumption that there are genuine problems within Github, hopefully this situation will at least give them a chance to engage in a bit of rebalancing, and find a more sustainable path for their future. This is, of course, the problem of solving problems by trial and error - you have to deal with the errors, and in cases like this the errors can be quite painful for the people involved.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#420

Ouch. What a terrible situation. I'm holding out for the other side of the story, but unless you're willing to assume the entire thing is invented this is a major fuckup for GitHub. I think this is a classic problem with companies making the transition from small startup to regular business. Break down the barriers! Flat management! Kill bureaucracy and embrace no-politics DIY organisation! The article reads like an…

> I mean, someone reverting your code because of a personal vendetta? I laughed out loud when I read this and several other specific details in the story. It sounded very familiar. I have several friends and many acquaintances who work at Valve. One very senior engineer initially worked on Source 2 about three years ago but had to quickly switch projects because another, more tenured engineer was expressing his disag…

It really surprises me that somebody can get away with such destructive behaviour as reverting someone else's commits without reasonable cause. What justification is there for not firing on the spot anybody who puts their own personal vendettas over the good of the project?
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