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Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

arstechnica.com

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Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#71

Post by bombcar »

WalterBright wrote: post #34
SoftTalker wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Odd that so often here on HN we talk about how prisons don't work, don't deter crime, don't rehabilitate... yet whenever some CEO or high level official is caught in malfeasance, we insist that "sending them to jail" is the only proper response.

Over time, my thoughts on prison have evolved. I no longer consider their purpose to be punishment, but instead simply segregating people from society who refuse to follow the rules of society. The segregation is enough punishment itself, more punishment doesn't need to be heaped on.

And in this case, where the crime is not one of violence, the punishment doesn't need to involve prison.

But the people who knowingly did wrong should receive some sort of punishment, even if it is just financial or being barred from their career path.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#72

Post by [deleted] »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #45
arp242 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have generally found that there's not that much relation between people's stated beliefs and their actual every-day behaviour. By and large, I do think their beliefs are genuine and heart-felt, and that they're not faking them. It's just that it doesn't really influence their daily behaviour all that much. Generally people are motivated by the incentives of the moment, emotion of the moment, and that kind of thing.…

> People often assume that if someone has the "right set of beliefs" (whatever that "right set" is) that they're also a good person. IIUC, there are a few aspects of Christian theology that muddy this issue a bit. I'm probably a bit wrong, so I'd be grateful for any corrections: 1) Christians believe in progressive sanctification. I.e., the Holy Spirit works, over time, to make Christians more like Jesus. So you real…

[deleted]

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#73

Post by akoboldfrying »

nihonthrowaway wrote: post #37
bedobi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon lol, in my experience... well, let me not finish that sentence

As a Christian, I have learned to be in my guard when business partners tell me about their Christianity. Or any other way of signaling their self-proported ethics.

My gut feeling: Being Christian is a very weak signal. Telling people that you're Christian (in a context where it's not important to do so) strongly signals a desire for social prominence, which is itself usually a bad sign.

I expect this holds for other religions too, I just don't have much experience there.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#74

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #45
arp242 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have generally found that there's not that much relation between people's stated beliefs and their actual every-day behaviour. By and large, I do think their beliefs are genuine and heart-felt, and that they're not faking them. It's just that it doesn't really influence their daily behaviour all that much. Generally people are motivated by the incentives of the moment, emotion of the moment, and that kind of thing.…

> People often assume that if someone has the "right set of beliefs" (whatever that "right set" is) that they're also a good person. IIUC, there are a few aspects of Christian theology that muddy this issue a bit. I'm probably a bit wrong, so I'd be grateful for any corrections: 1) Christians believe in progressive sanctification. I.e., the Holy Spirit works, over time, to make Christians more like Jesus. So you real…

I've yet to meet any Christians who don't contradict other Christians, while being 100% convinced their personal beliefs are correct and all those other interpretations are wrong.

So I don't think No True Christian is relevant here.

Whatever religion the CEO was cosplaying, the bottom line is that she was involved in organising an aggressive criminal cover-up which caused multiple suicides, unlawful jail terms, and bankruptcies.

She must have done this knowingly, because it's unimaginable that information about these problems didn't filter through to the board.

Ultimately everyone on the board is personally responsible, and should be treated accordingly.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#75

Post by all2 »

mylastattempt wrote: post #62
CoastalCoder wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People often assume that if someone has the "right set of beliefs" (whatever that "right set" is) that they're also a good person. IIUC, there are a few aspects of Christian theology that muddy this issue a bit. I'm probably a bit wrong, so I'd be grateful for any corrections: 1) Christians believe in progressive sanctification. I.e., the Holy Spirit works, over time, to make Christians more like Jesus. So you real…

All logic following from illogical things such as religion, are flawed and utterly useless. Determining anything based on it, is a waste of thought and energy. You'd be better off debating laws within the Star Trek universe.

> All logic following from illogical things such as religion, are flawed and utterly useless.

Interesting take considering the scientific method arose originally as a method for understanding God's consistent and ordered creation.

Just because you don't agree with something, or are not otherwise familiar with it, does not mean it is illogical.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#77

Post by puzzledobserver »

The Wikipedia article on Paula Vennells tells me that the Post Office prosecuted 700 subpostmasters between 1999 and 2015 [0]. That works out to about one prosecution every 8 days.

I do not know the baseline rate at which postmasters commit fraud or are prosecuted, but isn't one prosecution every 8 days an awfully high number? Shouldn't the Post Office have conducted some sort of internal investigation as soon as the frequency of prosecutions hit a number this high?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#78

Post by rayiner »

deepsun wrote: post #64
arp242 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have generally found that there's not that much relation between people's stated beliefs and their actual every-day behaviour. By and large, I do think their beliefs are genuine and heart-felt, and that they're not faking them. It's just that it doesn't really influence their daily behaviour all that much. Generally people are motivated by the incentives of the moment, emotion of the moment, and that kind of thing.…

Yep, except for the cases when some group of believers becomes so obsessed and intolerable, that they pack belongings and go do great things like founding Providence or Salt Lake City in the middle of a desert. Those deeds are very respectable IMO.

It’s pretty impressive, right? I don’t think if you took random New Yorkers and dumped them into that same situation they would have achieved the same outcomes.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#79

Post by mulmen »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #31
SoftTalker wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Odd that so often here on HN we talk about how prisons don't work, don't deter crime, don't rehabilitate... yet whenever some CEO or high level official is caught in malfeasance, we insist that "sending them to jail" is the only proper response.

Why is it that the same people who call for capital punishment, suddenly loose all their steam if you agree with them and say Boeing executives should be first in line for killing 300 people?

Because those people are made of straw. They can only speak when you speak for them.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#80

Post by marcosdumay »

orbisvicis wrote: post #33

"I [Paul Patterson, co-CEO of Fujitsu's European division] am surprised that that detail was not included in the witness statements given by Fujitsu staff to the Post Office and I have seen some evidence of editing witness statements by others" How does this scandal keep getting worse and worse when the only thing to cover up is a contract for some poorly written software? At this point I'm starting to suspect some u…

It's not the first time I see news about people committing hideous crimes just to cover up some mild offense. It's always surprising, and always feels absurd and impossible, but it just keeps happening.

I guess just like comedy and bad suspense movies, crimes always escalate.

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