Bugs are inevitable. The real issue is with the post office management that prosecuted people they knew there was a good chance were innocent, withheld evidence, falsified evidence, and harassed journalists investigating. What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells > witness statements from Fujitsu staff due to…
Seriously now, with all this information now available, shouldn't all the people that lied and rewrote statements be prosecuted for perjury?
Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"
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Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have generally found that there's not that much relation between people's stated beliefs and their actual every-day behaviour. By and large, I do think their beliefs are genuine and heart-felt, and that they're not faking them. It's just that it doesn't really influence their daily behaviour all that much. Generally people are motivated by the incentives of the moment, emotion of the moment, and that kind of thing.…
> People often assume that if someone has the "right set of beliefs" (whatever that "right set" is) that they're also a good person. IIUC, there are a few aspects of Christian theology that muddy this issue a bit. I'm probably a bit wrong, so I'd be grateful for any corrections: 1) Christians believe in progressive sanctification. I.e., the Holy Spirit works, over time, to make Christians more like Jesus. So you real…
Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
Odd that so often here on HN we talk about how prisons don't work, don't deter crime, don't rehabilitate... yet whenever some CEO or high level official is caught in malfeasance, we insist that "sending them to jail" is the only proper response.
The kind of response you see in this case is a call for a payback for the miscarriage of justice that destroyed people's lives. Quite justified given what was done to hundreds of people.
Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"
#64Bugs are inevitable. The real issue is with the post office management that prosecuted people they knew there was a good chance were innocent, withheld evidence, falsified evidence, and harassed journalists investigating. What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells > witness statements from Fujitsu staff due to…
I have generally found that there's not that much relation between people's stated beliefs and their actual every-day behaviour. By and large, I do think their beliefs are genuine and heart-felt, and that they're not faking them. It's just that it doesn't really influence their daily behaviour all that much. Generally people are motivated by the incentives of the moment, emotion of the moment, and that kind of thing.…
Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have generally found that there's not that much relation between people's stated beliefs and their actual every-day behaviour. By and large, I do think their beliefs are genuine and heart-felt, and that they're not faking them. It's just that it doesn't really influence their daily behaviour all that much. Generally people are motivated by the incentives of the moment, emotion of the moment, and that kind of thing.…
Related, started realizing that "being a principled person" doesn't really mean "having (stated) principles", it means belief that you can (and should ) have principles that you're trying to apply consistently and continuously. Lots of people have principles. Not so many people are principled.
Anyway the UK Fujitsu/Postmaster scandal is about a huge chain of dishonest human behavior, not bugs in software.
Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"
#66"I [Paul Patterson, co-CEO of Fujitsu's European division] am surprised that that detail was not included in the witness statements given by Fujitsu staff to the Post Office and I have seen some evidence of editing witness statements by others" How does this scandal keep getting worse and worse when the only thing to cover up is a contract for some poorly written software? At this point I'm starting to suspect some u…
I found that interesting as well. It shifts the blame away from software and a cover up by Fujitsu to more of a perception/reputation/political cover up by the Post Office. Fujitsu still has some blame, but if their statements were being modified by the post office, who's responsibility is it to review that? If I gave a written statement to a police officer, is it my responsibility to follow up and make sure they did…
Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"
#67All the PO lawyers rewriting witness statements must go to jail. All the prosecutors must go to jail for negligence and malpractice.
Odd that so often here on HN we talk about how prisons don't work, don't deter crime, don't rehabilitate... yet whenever some CEO or high level official is caught in malfeasance, we insist that "sending them to jail" is the only proper response.
The only reason for prisons and criminal justice of various to exist throughout history has been to (1) deter crime by threatening punishment and (2) give the rest of the society confidence that "crime doesn't pay" - because a system that has higher intrinsic trust and follows rules invariably outperforms ones that don't economically and often militarily. Yes part of such a successful system is graded treatment for people who have a better chance of rehabilitation as such folks are much more useful in society and tempering of justice contextually.
However trying to add additional tasks to the system, like rehabilitation or empowerment or economic development of a disadvantaged class serves only to compromise the core function and result in societal breakdown. These are all important tasks and they should be delivered through other parts of the government that are focused on these missions. It is perfectly fine for different arms of a government to have seemingly contradictory missions and these need not be aligned like how audit/controls and commercial functions are not necessarily aligned.
Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"
#68How often do you hear a suit talk of their "moral obligation"?
That really struck me. So true
So often we (computer programmers) get to walk away free and clear from the cluster fucks that arrive from our mistakes
Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"
#69Bugs are inevitable. The real issue is with the post office management that prosecuted people they knew there was a good chance were innocent, withheld evidence, falsified evidence, and harassed journalists investigating. What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells > witness statements from Fujitsu staff due to…
Yes
But accounting software that gets totals wrong is not inevitable
Entirely avoidable
Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon lol, in my experience... well, let me not finish that sentence
As a Christian, I have learned to be in my guard when business partners tell me about their Christianity. Or any other way of signaling their self-proported ethics.
If it's anything beyond a little add in the church bulletin or a small fish on a truck, it's probably indicative.