Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#71

Post by brnt » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 3:25 PM UTC

rocgf wrote: post #69

brnt wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, I think a less favorable Dutch trait lies at the root for a lack of interest in such matters: people believe so strongly this is a nice and 'civilized' place, most people refuse to even entertain the idea anything could be seriously out of whack in 'paradise'. There is a sort of reinforcing feedback loop to preferring to pretend all is well: to most people things of course are usually well and if every…

Thank you for the comment. To be fair, the Netherlands is as close to paradise as I can imagine, as long as the definition of paradise is not one of palm trees and warm weather. Even though I am outraged by what is happening, I can't help but feel that something is happening to tackle this. The Netherlands is a very sane place, after all, and I'd like to think that whoever can do something about this is doing somethi…

I'm afraid I don't share your optimism. The Ministry of Justice is widely reported to be in disarray, a fiefdom with warring factions out of control, all the while neoliberalist governments have been gutting it, as have the Police (hence the cancellation of the Major Crimes unit in Amsterdam, which was tiny to begin with) and the prosecutors office, and legal assistance and general availability of the judiciary to citizens (closure of courthouses).

Things are on course to become worse, at this time. Carefully some people start to suggest we need Italian-style investments to be able to track, uncover and handle this level and amount of crime, but we are nowhere near understanding or funding that. There is just no expertise, and no(t much) electoral pressure to fund it. Half of our 'sanity' is simply looking away from problems and hoping they pass of their own accord. That works sometimes, but here I'm not getting my hopes up.

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#72

Post by mg794613 » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #26

> They are aspirational, they are looking for a career in the underworld. I bet they would have been really happy to become corporate lawyers, highly paid computer programmers or big-4 accountants, but I have a slight feeling those career opportunities were never quite open for them (except for a very lucky few). In other words, if you only provide a "life of crime" as a way of getting out of poverty you can be sure…

The thing is, they have so many opportunities in the Netherlands. The true problem is the culture, and I'm not talking about maroccan culture, but "mocro". This is a culture that developed over 3/4 generations where the criminal path is the "cool" option. The right basically imported them to do jobs the dutch felt too good for. Then they were told by the left not to hit their kids, but weren't told how to raise them instead. All respect for the father (important in that culture) got lost and the kids ended on the streets, giving each other a feed back loop to "screw those stupid dutchies". The dutch also failed in regards of spreading them, which allowed for this culture to develop.

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#73

Post by mg794613 » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

mg794613 wrote: post #72

paganel wrote: post #26

> They are aspirational, they are looking for a career in the underworld. I bet they would have been really happy to become corporate lawyers, highly paid computer programmers or big-4 accountants, but I have a slight feeling those career opportunities were never quite open for them (except for a very lucky few). In other words, if you only provide a "life of crime" as a way of getting out of poverty you can be sure…

The thing is, they have so many opportunities in the Netherlands. The true problem is the culture, and I'm not talking about maroccan culture, but "mocro". This is a culture that developed over 3/4 generations where the criminal path is the "cool" option. The right basically imported them to do jobs the dutch felt too good for. Then they were told by the left not to hit their kids, but weren't told how to raise them…

For example, white or black schools were unthinkable about 20 years ago. It simply didn't exist because everything was mixed. Nowadays this is a real thing.

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#74

Post by rocgf » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 4:28 PM UTC

brnt wrote: post #71

rocgf wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the comment. To be fair, the Netherlands is as close to paradise as I can imagine, as long as the definition of paradise is not one of palm trees and warm weather. Even though I am outraged by what is happening, I can't help but feel that something is happening to tackle this. The Netherlands is a very sane place, after all, and I'd like to think that whoever can do something about this is doing somethi…

I'm afraid I don't share your optimism. The Ministry of Justice is widely reported to be in disarray, a fiefdom with warring factions out of control, all the while neoliberalist governments have been gutting it, as have the Police (hence the cancellation of the Major Crimes unit in Amsterdam, which was tiny to begin with) and the prosecutors office, and legal assistance and general availability of the judiciary to ci…

I am truly heartbroken to hear this. I simply refuse to believe that the Netherlands will go from heaven on earth to crime ridden due to drugs.

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#75

Post by iguy » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 5:18 PM UTC

consp wrote: post #49

iguy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, TFA's take stresses these connections: "Young Moroccans call each other 'Mocro'...", and "... West Africa. The drugs then went north over old smuggling lines from Morocco, and young Moroccans whose parents had moved to the Netherlands still had family connections and migration routes to tap into."

Only one part of it. Most synthetic drugs are made on site or smuggled in though different routes not involving the parties described. It's a wide mix but due to some "grouping" of certain ethnicity in groups they easily get called out the same while there is a wide variety of people involved. Most is coming in via the Rotterdam harbor (and possibly Vlissingen, IJmuiden and others). And as far as I can read up on it,…

To be clear I don't have a position on this, I don't know enough about NL. The now-invisible top-level comment was being taken to task for stressing the Moroccans' involvement, which the BBC also focused on. I'm sure there are other aspects to the drug business.

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#76

Post by tzs » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 6:28 PM UTC

For those like me who never heard the term "supergrass" before, and are even more confused after Googling and finding out the entire first page of results are about an English rock band of that name:

> Supergrass is a British slang term for an informant who turns Queen's evidence, often in return for protection and immunity from prosecution. In the British criminal world, police informants have been called "grasses" since the late 1930s, and the "super" prefix was coined by journalists in the early 1970s to describe those who witnessed against fellow criminals in a series of high-profile mass trials at the time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergrass_(informant)

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#77

Post by sy1501 » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 6:59 PM UTC

wreet wrote: post #34

I like how the conservative BBC, writing from a country whose murder rate is double that of the Netherlands, is trying to hype up violence Amsterdam because they don't like drugs. What a bunch of shit.

The BBC does not have a conservative agenda it’s a very liberal organisation.

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#78

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 10:58 PM UTC

corporate_shi11 wrote: post #66

topmonk wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best way to help Africans is for Africans to help themselves in Africa first That's akin to telling a homeless person, “Get a job!” > ... creates social issues in the countries of destination. Social pressures, which may lead to solutions. > ...get a professional experience in Europe with the hard requirement that they must then return to their home countries afterwards. What's to prevent these bright young pro…

That's an incredibly naive and irresponsible approach to building a society. You're basically inviting a huge social challenge and stressor into otherwise perfectly functional and harmonious societies just to possibly further your own political and social agenda. You're like an engineer who throws a few bugs into a functioning system because "it will force the system to improve". The prosperous parts of the world are…

[deleted]

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#79

Post by topmonk » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 11:04 PM UTC

corporate_shi11 wrote: post #66

topmonk wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best way to help Africans is for Africans to help themselves in Africa first That's akin to telling a homeless person, “Get a job!” > ... creates social issues in the countries of destination. Social pressures, which may lead to solutions. > ...get a professional experience in Europe with the hard requirement that they must then return to their home countries afterwards. What's to prevent these bright young pro…

That's an incredibly naive and irresponsible approach to building a society. You're basically inviting a huge social challenge and stressor into otherwise perfectly functional and harmonious societies just to possibly further your own political and social agenda. You're like an engineer who throws a few bugs into a functioning system because "it will force the system to improve". The prosperous parts of the world are…

> You're like an engineer who throws a few bugs into a functioning system because "it will force the system to improve".

You realize societies develop on their own, right? And they deal with stressors all the time, right?

Unlike, say, an engine, which is only a collection of moving parts designed to work only one way...

> > You're like an engineer who throws a few bugs into a functioning system because "it will force the system to improve".

You realize societies develop on their own, right? And they deal with stressors all the time, right?

Unlike, say, an engine, which is only a collection of moving parts designed to work one way...

> The prosperous parts of the world are prosperous because the people living there made them prosperous

Now who's being naïve? You think the world is some sort of boardgame where everyone starts with the same amount of resources and gets the same options? I really don't know where to start with this...

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#80

Post by topmonk » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 11:27 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #70

topmonk wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best way to help Africans is for Africans to help themselves in Africa first That's akin to telling a homeless person, “Get a job!” > ... creates social issues in the countries of destination. Social pressures, which may lead to solutions. > ...get a professional experience in Europe with the hard requirement that they must then return to their home countries afterwards. What's to prevent these bright young pro…

> Social pressures, which may lead to solutions. Yes, usually the solution is clamping down on immigration... > Immigration provides pressure for society to learn how to integrate poorer people, whether homegrown or foreign, helping everybody. It does not create such pressure. As said, it only creates pressure to implement tougher rules on immigration. And it certainly does not help the countries of origin, which see…

> Yes, usually the solution is clamping down on immigration...

That's not a solution more than a choice not to face a problem.

> It does not create such pressure. As said, it only creates pressure to implement tougher rules on immigration.

Seeing people suffering all around you does create social pressure, in normal human beings, at least. I'm not trying to be trite here, but I don't think you really can deny that people seeing other people suffer inspires them to give.

> And it certainly does not help the countries of origin, which see their working age population leave and help a foreign economy instead of staying and helping the country.

Immigrant workers often send money home that far exceeds what they could ever make if they stayed. And they often do come back, after saving enough to retire, enriching their culture with western ideas as well.

> Again, Africans need to help themselves at home. No-one will or can develop African countries but Africans (the same goes for all countries, not only African ones).

Will you take a second to look at what you're saying? You might as well be talking about any group in need, ex. No one will or can help the homeless, but themselves. No one will or can help the disabled but themselves.

People can help other people, and often do. All you're doing here is basically saying “Everyone only for themselves” only you've cut the dividing lines by country. You might as well cut it by race, or social strata, it amounts to the same thing.