Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#61

Post by topmonk » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 2:03 PM UTC

golergka wrote: post #7

topmonk wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the unskilled young men were left in their home country, they would still be unskilled for the rest of their lives. But, by bringing them in we are not only teaching them how to be more skilled, but also teaching our society how to more efficiently take unskilled workers and bring them up to a highly skilled workers who can live a middle class life style like you or me. This is because the more you focus on someth…

It is helping itself with a problem it created in the first place.

A man who lifts weights to build muscle doesn't consider the weights problems

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#62

Post by topmonk » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 2:12 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #38

topmonk wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the unskilled young men were left in their home country, they would still be unskilled for the rest of their lives. But, by bringing them in we are not only teaching them how to be more skilled, but also teaching our society how to more efficiently take unskilled workers and bring them up to a highly skilled workers who can live a middle class life style like you or me. This is because the more you focus on someth…

The best way to help Africans is for Africans to help themselves in Africa first, then we can see how to help through investments in Africa. All the "let's welcome immigrants" discourse might give warm feelings to some but it does not help solving the issues in the countries of origin, and it also creates social issues in the countries of destination. I think it would be much more helpful to e.g. have more students p…

> The best way to help Africans is for Africans to help themselves in Africa first

That's akin to telling a homeless person, “Get a job!”

> ... creates social issues in the countries of destination.

Social pressures, which may lead to solutions.

> ...get a professional experience in Europe with the hard requirement that they must then return to their home countries afterwards.

What's to prevent these bright young professionals as soon as they are flown back to their country from just getting sponsored by a company in another foreign country and then hopping on a plane again?

What you're advocating for is a very weak attempt at finding a solution by doing much of the same. Unless society is pushed, it will never change. Immigration provides pressure for society to learn how to integrate poorer people, whether homegrown or foreign, helping everybody.

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#63

Post by kabes » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 2:12 PM UTC

swarnie_ wrote: post #42

TeeWEE wrote: post #13

What also doesnt help is that drugs is kind-a accepted in the party scene. XTC, Cocaine, in certain circles its quite normal that its used. And buying it is very easy. Also the police doesn't prioritize handling this. I heard that accross one police station taxis would stop, get somebody in the cart, drive 100m, and then the person gets out. The police knew that drugs was being dealed here, but they didnt prioritize…

We can reliably get this brown looking molly sent over to the UK from Amsterdam. Not sure what the risks involved are but it usually arrives in a birthday card. Legit great stuff 10/10, keep it coming boys.

Brown looking molly is impure, basically they skipped the cleansing part.

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#64

Post by topmonk » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

consp wrote: post #52

topmonk wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the unskilled young men were left in their home country, they would still be unskilled for the rest of their lives. But, by bringing them in we are not only teaching them how to be more skilled, but also teaching our society how to more efficiently take unskilled workers and bring them up to a highly skilled workers who can live a middle class life style like you or me. This is because the more you focus on someth…

> If the unskilled young men were left in their home country, they would still be unskilled for the rest of their lives. Most people involved in these groups are either second or third generation children of immigrants who specifically came for work which was available in the late 50's, 60's and early 70's which were specifically targeted since there was a major lack of available manpower due to fast economic growth…

They had miserable work and miserable lives. Your point being?

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#65

Post by topmonk » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #19

topmonk wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the unskilled young men were left in their home country, they would still be unskilled for the rest of their lives. But, by bringing them in we are not only teaching them how to be more skilled, but also teaching our society how to more efficiently take unskilled workers and bring them up to a highly skilled workers who can live a middle class life style like you or me. This is because the more you focus on someth…

In theory yes, but not in Amsterdam and the Randstad where there's too many people and too few schools. Not much chance of a middle class lifestyle there either, not with housing prices being what they are. It's a poverty lifestyle even if you manage to get a decent house; no wonder people are looking for fast, big money. Especially if they have family connections and can get away with it easily.

Can't that “not enough schools” change though?

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#66

Post by corporate_shi11 » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

topmonk wrote: post #62

mytailorisrich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way to help Africans is for Africans to help themselves in Africa first, then we can see how to help through investments in Africa. All the "let's welcome immigrants" discourse might give warm feelings to some but it does not help solving the issues in the countries of origin, and it also creates social issues in the countries of destination. I think it would be much more helpful to e.g. have more students p…

> The best way to help Africans is for Africans to help themselves in Africa first That's akin to telling a homeless person, “Get a job!” > ... creates social issues in the countries of destination. Social pressures, which may lead to solutions. > ...get a professional experience in Europe with the hard requirement that they must then return to their home countries afterwards. What's to prevent these bright young pro…

That's an incredibly naive and irresponsible approach to building a society. You're basically inviting a huge social challenge and stressor into otherwise perfectly functional and harmonious societies just to possibly further your own political and social agenda. You're like an engineer who throws a few bugs into a functioning system because "it will force the system to improve".

The prosperous parts of the world are prosperous because the people living there made them prosperous. Unprosperous parts of the world could do the same if they followed the well worn path of development (law, order, stability, individuals working hard to learn and build business and enterprise, etc.) that all developed nations have followed.

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#67

Post by blaser-waffle » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

seqizz wrote: post #43

kabes wrote: post #24

Answer: no. Not by any real definition of a narco-state[1]. There is a lot of drug trafficking/production, but there is no meaningful infiltration into the official institutions/government. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-state

Ah, of course, "Betteridge's law of headlines" [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...

This could be the theme of HN.

"Is React going to upend the programming world forever?!"

"AMD Soars, is Intel's time over?"

etc. etc.

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#68

Post by brnt » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 2:46 PM UTC

rocgf wrote: post #59

brnt wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most liquidations (attempts) are indeed other criminals, so far, but also that number is rising. A somewhat dated (2016) timeline from Amsterdam newspaper Het Parool [1]. The scary thing is that the Netherlands basically doesnt have major crimes units. There a good forensics bureau, which is also under heavy strain [2], and a small department at the National Police. That makes is trivial for hardened criminals to sta…

This saddens me deeply. The Netherlands is my favorite country. Is this something that concerns people around you? Is it like a major shock to everybody?

Unfortunately, I think a less favorable Dutch trait lies at the root for a lack of interest in such matters: people believe so strongly this is a nice and 'civilized' place, most people refuse to even entertain the idea anything could be seriously out of whack in 'paradise'.

There is a sort of reinforcing feedback loop to preferring to pretend all is well: to most people things of course are usually well and if everyone thinks all is well most people will behave well. But if you're one of the unlucky ones affected by such issues, you'll find it very difficult to convince people, after all, all is well.

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#69

Post by rocgf » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 3:00 PM UTC

brnt wrote: post #68

rocgf wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This saddens me deeply. The Netherlands is my favorite country. Is this something that concerns people around you? Is it like a major shock to everybody?

Unfortunately, I think a less favorable Dutch trait lies at the root for a lack of interest in such matters: people believe so strongly this is a nice and 'civilized' place, most people refuse to even entertain the idea anything could be seriously out of whack in 'paradise'. There is a sort of reinforcing feedback loop to preferring to pretend all is well: to most people things of course are usually well and if every…

Thank you for the comment. To be fair, the Netherlands is as close to paradise as I can imagine, as long as the definition of paradise is not one of palm trees and warm weather.

Even though I am outraged by what is happening, I can't help but feel that something is happening to tackle this. The Netherlands is a very sane place, after all, and I'd like to think that whoever can do something about this is doing something about it.

Re: Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state?

#70

Post by mytailorisrich » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 3:13 PM UTC

topmonk wrote: post #62

mytailorisrich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way to help Africans is for Africans to help themselves in Africa first, then we can see how to help through investments in Africa. All the "let's welcome immigrants" discourse might give warm feelings to some but it does not help solving the issues in the countries of origin, and it also creates social issues in the countries of destination. I think it would be much more helpful to e.g. have more students p…

> The best way to help Africans is for Africans to help themselves in Africa first That's akin to telling a homeless person, “Get a job!” > ... creates social issues in the countries of destination. Social pressures, which may lead to solutions. > ...get a professional experience in Europe with the hard requirement that they must then return to their home countries afterwards. What's to prevent these bright young pro…

> Social pressures, which may lead to solutions.

Yes, usually the solution is clamping down on immigration...

> Immigration provides pressure for society to learn how to integrate poorer people, whether homegrown or foreign, helping everybody.

It does not create such pressure. As said, it only creates pressure to implement tougher rules on immigration.

And it certainly does not help the countries of origin, which see their working age population leave and help a foreign economy instead of staying and helping the country.

Again, Africans need to help themselves at home. No-one will or can develop African countries but Africans (the same goes for all countries, not only African ones).