Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#71

Post by wtmt » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 9:05 AM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #4

I once had a long conversation with a religious relative, and I think it boils down to her not believing that someone can be "moral" without believing that god is watching. Somewhat relevant: Why Did God Create Atheists? There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is…

On morality and atheism, I'm reminded of this dialogue from the show "True Detective", Season 1 Episode 3 (emphasized part of it) [1]:

Rust Cohle: "If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of shit. And I’d like to get as many of them out in the open as possible. You gotta get together and tell yourself stories that violate every law of the universe just to get through the goddamn day? What’s that say about your reality?""

[1]: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/True_Detective#The_Locked_Room...

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#72

Post by NeedMoreTea » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 9:19 AM UTC

paulgrant999 wrote: post #59

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've yet to meet anyone militantly anti-religion here in the UK despite pretty much everyone I know being life long atheist or formerly religious. What would that even look like? I see no anti church demos, marches or anything. Just the odd individual going off on one on some Facebook post or other net forum from time to time. Just as some believers can. The only thing I have seen is a wish to have bureaucracy and of…

yeah its different here in the US. :) Everything is more polarized/political. Everything. > Just the odd individual going off on one on some Facebook post or other net forum from time to time. I discuss theology on a fairly regular basis ;) and philosophy. ;) lets just say there's a fair amount of "ex-Christians" who are looking for something new to latch on. Same old shit (hate/misanthropy), just wrapped in new clot…

> lets just say there's a fair amount of "ex-Christians" who are looking for something new to latch on

OK, that makes some sense. I don't think many have "committed" to religion and church in the UK for a century or more, compared to the enthusiasm that appears to exist in the US. Even many of those who openly believed rarely actually went regularly.

One formerly quite religious friend who lost faith in his mid or late 40s seemed quite apathetic for a while after. From my perspective looking on that was more that he lost the community, and group activities that he once regularly attended. Perhaps joining a new group or replacing the missing sense family would appeal. Thankfully atheist evangelists and militancy aren't a thing here outside of Dawkins. :)

> What to your mind, is the purpose of having an explicit box? I'm curious.

Hospitals might want to dispose of me in an appropriate manner if the risky operation fails. Passport applications insist on it (I think. It's been 8 years or so since my last). The clerk filling in the screen doesn't get much choice if it's a mandatory field they can't skip. It's sometimes gathered to try and ensure a lack of discrimination across large organisations.

> But he respects my choice to follow a religion; same as I respect his choice, to follow none.

This seems to nail it. Religion, belief, spirituality and atheism has become a personal thing separate and unrelated to organised religions in the UK.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#73

Post by lj3 » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 10:16 AM UTC

Grue3 wrote: post #69

lj3 wrote: post #9

Maybe it's because Americans like to be alive and atheists have an alarming tendency to kill themselves. I don't know why, but humans are hard wired for religion. http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.16... http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/155/5/413.full http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26661826 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26110867 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25862549 http://w…

Persecuted people tend to kill themselves more often, yes. That's not the evidence that humans are hardwired to be straight white cis Christian males.

Atheists aren't persecuted. They aren't being executed for their beliefs. Christians still are, though, in China, Africa and the Middle East.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#74

Post by lj3 » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 10:22 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #53

lj3 wrote: post #9

Maybe it's because Americans like to be alive and atheists have an alarming tendency to kill themselves. I don't know why, but humans are hard wired for religion. http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.16... http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/155/5/413.full http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26661826 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26110867 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25862549 http://w…

> Maybe it's because Americans like to be alive and atheists have an alarming tendency to kill themselves. If a religious belief is preventing suicide then it sounds like theists are afraid of punishment more than having a stronger desire to live than atheists. Personally I think condemning someone to hell for eternity just for being unable to cope in this life is one of the most morally reprehensible things imaginab…

You have no idea what you're talking about. Why did Christianity gain acceptance in the first place? People believe in Christianity not out of fear, but out of hope. Atheism doesn't provide any hope, comfort or love. Just the brutal reality that this life is all there is and that there's no point to the pain suffered in this life. Atheists kill themselves because they have no hope that things will ever improve. That they're utterly alone and always will be. Christians know they are never alone and that at least one person will always love them, even if nobody else ever does.

You're thinking about Christianity like it's something evil. You might have a better time of it if you think of Christianity as the firmware that runs western civilization.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#75

Post by lj3 » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 10:29 AM UTC

robotron wrote: post #51

beatgammit wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're agnostic. As an American, I honestly haven't run into this. I am religious, and most of my coworkers are religious, but we have had an atheist and an agnostic in our group (we're all developers) and it really didn't seem to matter. Religion rarely comes up in a professional setting, and it didn't come up when we did things outside of work as friends. As long as you aren't aggressive against that which you d…

Are you saying that the most reviled, despised, and shamed group in America "picks fights" against the juggernaut of believers? The mere act of stating we're a non-believer is considered militant. Attending a gathering of other non-believers is considered aggressive and obnoxious. Why would that be? Treat others with respect? Do atheists get any respect from the religious? From our own government? Is it respectful to…

Where do you live? Not the US, surely. I don't recognize the America you're describing at all. Christianity is probably one of the most tolerant religions on the planet. Christians regularly turn the other cheek and love to "live and let live". They only get aggressive when people try to interfere with their ability to practice their religion.

If you haven't noticed, there's a war against christianity in the US. Nativity scenes being shut down. Not being able to pray in school. The constant attacks from popular culture and the media. Atheists tend to be especially vocal about the fact that they shouldn't have to see, think or hear anything even tangentially related to Christianity (although they have no problem with Islam. Go figure.) Christians see this as an attack on their ability to practice their religion.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#76

Post by krapp » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 10:36 AM UTC

thawkins wrote: post #36

wolfgke wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but Trump is obviously an atheist. I doubt this: he rather either believes that he is personally chosen by God or God himself. :-)

There is only one god that trump worships, himself.

The difference between God and Donald Trump is that God doesn't believe he is Donald Trump.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#77

Post by majewsky » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 11:21 AM UTC

hackeraccount wrote: post #46

GavinMcG wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating belief and knowledge. Agnosticism has to do with epistemic access to God – that is, knowability. One can deny knowability while having a belief in God, and therefore being a theist. It just requires acknowledging that one's belief is and always will be unfounded – a matter of faith.

Just so. If you're give a postulate with no evidence for or against it - do you believe it?

(Implying that you meant to write "given" instead of "give".)

Of course not. Absence of belief is not belief in absence. If "not believing in something" were an active task, I'd be busy all day not-believing in trillions of bizarre things.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#78

Post by codeulike » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 1:50 PM UTC

qubax wrote: post #45

codeulike wrote: post #2

As someone from the UK, where atheism is so uncontroversial that people barely talk about it, it is kindof baffling how much everyone in the USA seems to go on about god, and atheists in the USA seem to have some sort of uphill battle to be recognised as people who could be vaguely competent at anything.

> and atheists in the USA seem to have some sort of uphill battle to be recognised as people who could be vaguely competent at anything. If you are from the UK, what could you possibly know about the US? I'm atheist and have been since 12 or so. My parents are christian. Never had any issues like you described in my entire life. Stop believing exaggerated nonsense from for-profit companies like the new yorker as trut…

I feel like I know a bit about the USA because about 70% of the internet and social media is taken up with discussions of your politics and society.

But yes I might have overreached a bit.

I'm glad to hear that your (un)religious opinion hasn't affected your life, but I'm thinking specifically about the political arena: The fact that Bernie Sanders has to deny being an atheist, and that Zuckerberg has to suddenly pretend to be religious because he has political ambitions. Things like that just dont happen over here. No-one is particularly interested in the religion or lack thereof of politicians, and it really doesn't get discussed much. (edit: Northern Ireland is a very complicated exception to this)

Perhaps quoting Chomsky here isn't a great idea but according to him, the United States is a very fundamentalist, religious country – one of the most extreme in the world. https://chomsky.info/01312016/

re: Zealous Atheists in the UK - well we did produce Dawkins but generally atheists over here dont have much to complain about because we are a genuinely secular society. People like Dawkins tend to turn their attention to other countries. And because we're secular, most people don't really have to spend much time thinking what they 'are' at all, in that sense.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#79

Post by eudora » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 2:18 PM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #50

i_made_a_booboo wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mildly hilarious how Japan is a ridiculously safe place crime-wise and has pretty high moral standards and is pretty much entirely atheist. They visit temples because they visit temples and it's just expected that that's what you do because everyone does it ala being Japanese circular logic. The same circular logic is responsible for their moral standards. Turns out it's not God thats responsible for morality, it's t…

Japan...has pretty high moral standards Well.... that depends on your morals, Japanese pop culture still sexualizes young girls... and the trains have dedicated "female cars" so woman can avoid groping in the regular cars. Women are distinctly in a lower class than men. Japan is a very clean and safe country, but I wouldn't hold it up as a beacon of morality.

The people you describe are a ridiculously tiny minority.. It hardly reflects on their society as a whole.

What you bring up, I think, is just a common trope about Japan.

People have misleading ideas like this about countries they haven't experienced much of.

For example, I've met a few people who think every inch of the US is a lawless bullet storm.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#80

Post by SOMMS » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

masonic wrote: post #68

SOMMS wrote: post #63

Long story short - because it's deeply un-American. Atheism is fundamentally at odds with the values and ideals of the founding fathers and the vision they had for America. Remember this is a country that was born because "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights". The idea that all are created in God's image therefore all are equal - is a foundation for why ou…

Moreover the founding fathers were either A-devout Christians themselves or B-held considerable regard for the Christian religion. Actually, a plurality of them were Deists, specifically dis believing any divinity of Christ.

Out of curiosity - why was the above post flagged? It didn't violate any of the HN commenting rules. It didn't advocate for/against atheism/religion (this was explicitly stated), and it didn't state anything that was not factual.

??