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Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

newyorker.com

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Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#41

Post by paulgrant999 »

codeulike wrote: post #2

As someone from the UK, where atheism is so uncontroversial that people barely talk about it, it is kindof baffling how much everyone in the USA seems to go on about god, and atheists in the USA seem to have some sort of uphill battle to be recognised as people who could be vaguely competent at anything.

atheists here are "theistic" atheists. they are militantly anti-religion, anti-god, claim this as a "neutral" position.

in reality, its just another religion.

true atheists, are like true feminists; god/gender, simply doesn't enter into the mix.

I enjoy the company of both; but not, their intellectual progeny. And neither, do they.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#42

Post by Ws32ok »

Let's explore religion for a moment and why it tends to hate atheism so much.

1. People who believe are threatened by those who do not. It is disconcerting to have belief systems attacked or ripped out from under you. "Those who are not us can't be trusted." Groups tend to passionately hate individuals who don't want to be members.

2. Non-belief has definite consequences in most religions. Conformism is a trait of religious people. Leaving is unacceptable to many. Muslim extremists have definite opinions about apostasy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy

3. Santa Claus is a good example. A kid is told about Santa. Presents appear. One day the older brother figures it out. He is told, do you want presents or is Santa not real? I think this is a microcosm of multiple belief systems. Remove the possibility of presents/rewards and multiple religions vanish in a puff of smoke.

4. It's an amazing coincidence that people tend to have the same religion as their parents and community. And this saves them from eternal damnation. What about the people who existed before the religion was created?

5. Religion has no monopoly on morality or virtue. Evidence has shown that religious people are quite capable of breaking rules. Multiple religions cite divorce as "a bad thing" yet plenty of religious people do it. Murder, theft and cursing still exist.

6. Validity of religion in general can be exposed by getting a religious person to explain why they would not convert to another. Their reasons increasingly become more difficult to defend. Remember that it is likely only one belief system is true and all others are false. And your religion was likely chosen before you were born. This is an awkward truth many don't want to discuss.

7. If you've read this far, please know that I'm not atheist.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#43

Post by nemo846 »

jim_bailie wrote: post #17

That's like asking why atheists are still uncomfortable with religious faith and spirituality.

> spirituality

What exactly is “spirituality”?

Dictionary says it’s “related to soul or spirit” - to paraphrase.

But if you don’t believe in souls/spirits ...

Edit: Nice. No retort. Just downvote.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#44

Post by i_made_a_booboo »

Johnny555 wrote: post #4

I once had a long conversation with a religious relative, and I think it boils down to her not believing that someone can be "moral" without believing that god is watching. Somewhat relevant: Why Did God Create Atheists? There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is…

Mildly hilarious how Japan is a ridiculously safe place crime-wise and has pretty high moral standards and is pretty much entirely atheist. They visit temples because they visit temples and it's just expected that that's what you do because everyone does it ala being Japanese circular logic. The same circular logic is responsible for their moral standards.

Turns out it's not God thats responsible for morality, it's the existence and enforcement of norms by members of the community that is.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#45

Post by qubax »

codeulike wrote: post #2

As someone from the UK, where atheism is so uncontroversial that people barely talk about it, it is kindof baffling how much everyone in the USA seems to go on about god, and atheists in the USA seem to have some sort of uphill battle to be recognised as people who could be vaguely competent at anything.

> and atheists in the USA seem to have some sort of uphill battle to be recognised as people who could be vaguely competent at anything.

If you are from the UK, what could you possibly know about the US? I'm atheist and have been since 12 or so. My parents are christian. Never had any issues like you described in my entire life.

Stop believing exaggerated nonsense from for-profit companies like the new yorker as truths. It's more clickbait fiction than anything.

Sure the US may be more religious than other countries. But there are plenty of atheists and agnostics and every other religion and non-religions around. And people get along fine.

Frankly, my perception of the UK ( which I've never visited but I've read about so that makes an exper ) is that the atheists in the UK are far more zealous and militant than the religious in the US. But I'm guessing I know as much about the UK as you do about the US.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#46

Post by hackeraccount »

GavinMcG wrote: post #14
bryanlarsen wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atheism is the "lack of a belief in God". It's not the belief that there is no God, it's the lack of a belief that there is one. All agnostics are also atheists.

You're conflating belief and knowledge. Agnosticism has to do with epistemic access to God – that is, knowability. One can deny knowability while having a belief in God, and therefore being a theist. It just requires acknowledging that one's belief is and always will be unfounded – a matter of faith.

Just so. If you're give a postulate with no evidence for or against it - do you believe it?

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#47

Post by beatgammit »

memebox3v wrote: post #15
lj3 wrote: post #9

Maybe it's because Americans like to be alive and atheists have an alarming tendency to kill themselves. I don't know why, but humans are hard wired for religion. http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.16... http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/155/5/413.full http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26661826 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26110867 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25862549 http://w…

In the uk its a non thing. 50% of my friends are atheists. Its such a non issue that it hardly ever comes up. The first time i had a problem is when i couldnt have a church wedding because I couldnt morally profess a belief in a christian god. My mum in law was very very unhappy. In fact ive felt socially threatened amongst my developer friends when I have been inable to say that I am atheist (I think in a certain se…

So you're agnostic.

As an American, I honestly haven't run into this. I am religious, and most of my coworkers are religious, but we have had an atheist and an agnostic in our group (we're all developers) and it really didn't seem to matter. Religion rarely comes up in a professional setting, and it didn't come up when we did things outside of work as friends.

As long as you aren't aggressive against that which you don't believe, there really shouldn't be any problems. Most of the problems I run into are from atheists and agnostics picking a fight with theists. Treat others with respect and you'll get it in return.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#48

Post by NeedMoreTea »

paulgrant999 wrote: post #41
codeulike wrote: post #2

As someone from the UK, where atheism is so uncontroversial that people barely talk about it, it is kindof baffling how much everyone in the USA seems to go on about god, and atheists in the USA seem to have some sort of uphill battle to be recognised as people who could be vaguely competent at anything.

atheists here are "theistic" atheists. they are militantly anti-religion, anti-god, claim this as a "neutral" position. in reality, its just another religion. true atheists, are like true feminists; god/gender, simply doesn't enter into the mix. I enjoy the company of both; but not, their intellectual progeny. And neither, do they.

I've yet to meet anyone militantly anti-religion here in the UK despite pretty much everyone I know being life long atheist or formerly religious. What would that even look like? I see no anti church demos, marches or anything. Just the odd individual going off on one on some Facebook post or other net forum from time to time. Just as some believers can.

The only thing I have seen is a wish to have bureaucracy and officialdom recognise "no belief in god" as an equally valid box to tick as CofE. For decades half of those ticking CofE or any of the non-conformist options were a vote for atheism. There's no box, tick what my family grandparents would have.

If I had to summarise UK views, most simply don't seem to care, or see the point of a supernatural being, a god, or some ancient human rules that restrict what you can eat or if you may control your reproduction. If you need tobacco or some deity to get through life have at it.

Humanism, some sort of earth centred belief, or Buddhism thanks to its philosophy and lack of creator have all risen as religion has become increasingly irrelevant for most.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#49

Post by beatgammit »

wolfgke wrote: post #33
jim_bailie wrote: post #17

That's like asking why atheists are still uncomfortable with religious faith and spirituality.

> That's like asking why atheists are still uncomfortable with religious faith and spirituality. Because if you accept religious arguments, you can also perfectly argue using similar arguments that also the Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) exists.

And that's fine.

As long as you don't use religious arguments in an academic or professional context, it doesn't matter what unprovable thing you believe in.

I'm religious, but if we met in an academic or professional context, you'd likely think I'm agnostic because I try to limit myself to arguments that can be proven using observable and repeatable evidence.

If you believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists, then have at it. Just don't try to justify a bunch of colanders as a business expense as insurance against an angry FSM, but feel free to wear one as a religious symbol on your own dime.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#50

Post by Johnny555 »

i_made_a_booboo wrote: post #44
Johnny555 wrote: post #4

I once had a long conversation with a religious relative, and I think it boils down to her not believing that someone can be "moral" without believing that god is watching. Somewhat relevant: Why Did God Create Atheists? There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is…

Mildly hilarious how Japan is a ridiculously safe place crime-wise and has pretty high moral standards and is pretty much entirely atheist. They visit temples because they visit temples and it's just expected that that's what you do because everyone does it ala being Japanese circular logic. The same circular logic is responsible for their moral standards. Turns out it's not God thats responsible for morality, it's t…

Japan...has pretty high moral standards

Well.... that depends on your morals, Japanese pop culture still sexualizes young girls... and the trains have dedicated "female cars" so woman can avoid groping in the regular cars. Women are distinctly in a lower class than men.

Japan is a very clean and safe country, but I wouldn't hold it up as a beacon of morality.

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