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Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

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Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#51

Post by robotron »

beatgammit wrote: post #47
memebox3v wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the uk its a non thing. 50% of my friends are atheists. Its such a non issue that it hardly ever comes up. The first time i had a problem is when i couldnt have a church wedding because I couldnt morally profess a belief in a christian god. My mum in law was very very unhappy. In fact ive felt socially threatened amongst my developer friends when I have been inable to say that I am atheist (I think in a certain se…

So you're agnostic. As an American, I honestly haven't run into this. I am religious, and most of my coworkers are religious, but we have had an atheist and an agnostic in our group (we're all developers) and it really didn't seem to matter. Religion rarely comes up in a professional setting, and it didn't come up when we did things outside of work as friends. As long as you aren't aggressive against that which you d…

Are you saying that the most reviled, despised, and shamed group in America "picks fights" against the juggernaut of believers? The mere act of stating we're a non-believer is considered militant. Attending a gathering of other non-believers is considered aggressive and obnoxious. Why would that be?

Treat others with respect? Do atheists get any respect from the religious? From our own government? Is it respectful to get religion (theistic or not) and god shoved down my throat everywhere I turn?

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#52

Post by robotron »

bachmeier wrote: post #7
std_throwawayay wrote: post #3

Atheism also seems to wrongly be a catch-all for things like Agnosticism which is nothing like Atheism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism "Agnosticism is the view that the existence of God, of the divine or the supernatural is unknown or unknowable. An agnostic can also be one who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic."

I basically assume that when someone makes a statement about atheism, they're actually talking about agnosticism. Those who claim to be atheists are hostile to being told their beliefs actually represent agnosticism, and when providing them a link to this article[1], they have claimed the author is wrong. That is an indicator that most participants in discussions of atheism have not spent a lot of time studying the s…

"hostile" - Again, with the attempt to paint atheists as ignorant and violent simply by insisting that they themselves know their own beliefs or lack of belief in a higher power.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#53

Post by flukus »

lj3 wrote: post #9

Maybe it's because Americans like to be alive and atheists have an alarming tendency to kill themselves. I don't know why, but humans are hard wired for religion. http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.16... http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/155/5/413.full http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26661826 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26110867 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25862549 http://w…

> Maybe it's because Americans like to be alive and atheists have an alarming tendency to kill themselves.

If a religious belief is preventing suicide then it sounds like theists are afraid of punishment more than having a stronger desire to live than atheists.

Personally I think condemning someone to hell for eternity just for being unable to cope in this life is one of the most morally reprehensible things imaginable.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#55

Post by Jordrok »

paulgrant999 wrote: post #40
Johnny555 wrote: post #4

I once had a long conversation with a religious relative, and I think it boils down to her not believing that someone can be "moral" without believing that god is watching. Somewhat relevant: Why Did God Create Atheists? There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is…

> and I think it boils down to her not believing that someone can be "moral" its interesting to note, that the concept of morality, is in fact, moored as a consensual hallucination as to what is good. therefore, as an atheist, you might mimic a "cultural" sense of goodness; but since the intent is not from the same source -- you may not pretend to share it. Logically, you are immoral simply because you do not share t…

> its interesting to note, that the concept of morality, is in fact, moored as a consensual hallucination as to what is good.

Says who? You?

> therefore, as an atheist, you might mimic a "cultural" sense of goodness; but since the intent is not from the same source -- you may not pretend to share it. Logically, you are immoral simply because you do not share the same inspiration. This is a direct consequence of "assuredness".

if you want it in mathematical format ;)

Again, your entire argument here is hinged on the assumption that all morality originates from religion and everyone else is just faking it. What you believe is right and everyone else is, by definition, wrong. Give me a break with this "mathematical format" nonsense and condescending smiley faces.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#56

Post by threatofrain »

Johnny555 wrote: post #4

I once had a long conversation with a religious relative, and I think it boils down to her not believing that someone can be "moral" without believing that god is watching. Somewhat relevant: Why Did God Create Atheists? There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is…

I believe churches also explicitly teach people that atheism is dangerous.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#57

Post by Johnny555 »

threatofrain wrote: post #56
Johnny555 wrote: post #4

I once had a long conversation with a religious relative, and I think it boils down to her not believing that someone can be "moral" without believing that god is watching. Somewhat relevant: Why Did God Create Atheists? There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is…

I believe churches also explicitly teach people that atheism is dangerous.

I grew up in a Christian family, went to church and/or bible school every Sunday, but was never taught that atheism is dangerous. I was taught though that atheists are going to hell and that I should try to help them to come to believe in god, but I wasn't taught to fear them or feel that their belief is dangerous.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#58

Post by Jordrok »

bachmeier wrote: post #7
std_throwawayay wrote: post #3

Atheism also seems to wrongly be a catch-all for things like Agnosticism which is nothing like Atheism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism "Agnosticism is the view that the existence of God, of the divine or the supernatural is unknown or unknowable. An agnostic can also be one who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic."

I basically assume that when someone makes a statement about atheism, they're actually talking about agnosticism. Those who claim to be atheists are hostile to being told their beliefs actually represent agnosticism, and when providing them a link to this article[1], they have claimed the author is wrong. That is an indicator that most participants in discussions of atheism have not spent a lot of time studying the s…

You can call it whatever you want if it makes you feel better. It won't change that person's belief (or lack thereof) though.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#59

Post by paulgrant999 »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #48
paulgrant999 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

atheists here are "theistic" atheists. they are militantly anti-religion, anti-god, claim this as a "neutral" position. in reality, its just another religion. true atheists, are like true feminists; god/gender, simply doesn't enter into the mix. I enjoy the company of both; but not, their intellectual progeny. And neither, do they.

I've yet to meet anyone militantly anti-religion here in the UK despite pretty much everyone I know being life long atheist or formerly religious. What would that even look like? I see no anti church demos, marches or anything. Just the odd individual going off on one on some Facebook post or other net forum from time to time. Just as some believers can. The only thing I have seen is a wish to have bureaucracy and of…

yeah its different here in the US. :) Everything is more polarized/political. Everything.

> Just the odd individual going off on one on some Facebook post or other net forum from time to time.

I discuss theology on a fairly regular basis ;) and philosophy. ;) lets just say there's a fair amount of "ex-Christians" who are looking for something new to latch on. Same old shit (hate/misanthropy), just wrapped in new cloth.

> "no belief in god" as an equally valid box to tick as CofE

Just leave it blank. What to your mind, is the purpose of having an explicit box? I'm curious.

> Humanism, some sort of earth centred belief, or Buddhism thanks to its philosophy and lack of creator have all risen as religion has become increasingly irrelevant for most.

Eh. I know Buddhist philosophy well. Few people get it. My friend who is an atheist (in the truest sense) is a humanist. So am I. Thats why we're friends. :) But he respects my choice to follow a religion; same as I respect his choice, to follow none.

Re: Why Are Americans Still Uncomfortable with Atheism?

#60

Post by paulgrant999 »

Jordrok wrote: post #55
paulgrant999 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and I think it boils down to her not believing that someone can be "moral" its interesting to note, that the concept of morality, is in fact, moored as a consensual hallucination as to what is good. therefore, as an atheist, you might mimic a "cultural" sense of goodness; but since the intent is not from the same source -- you may not pretend to share it. Logically, you are immoral simply because you do not share t…

> its interesting to note, that the concept of morality, is in fact, moored as a consensual hallucination as to what is good. Says who? You? > therefore, as an atheist, you might mimic a "cultural" sense of goodness; but since the intent is not from the same source -- you may not pretend to share it. Logically, you are immoral simply because you do not share the same inspiration. This is a direct consequence of "assu…

> Says who? You?

Yup. Your idea of good, is not my idea of good. That we can reach an agreement (compromise), the consensual portion.

That good, is often a matter of perspective, and subject to change in hindsight (i.e. a value judgement distorted heavily by the sensorium/ego) is where it is a hallucination.

> Again, your entire argument here is hinged on the assumption that all morality originates from religion

no, it doesn't. in point of fact, religion arises as a consequence, of the argument. So do gangs/police/armies/nations. Welcome to the morass, of humanity. :)

;)

or if you prefer "the road to hell, is paved with "good" intentions".

or more succinctly, "hell is other people".

> Give me a break with this "mathematical format" nonsense

Not a fan of logic?

> and condescending smiley faces.

condescending? not really. simply commenting on an alternate pathway to arrive at the conclusion, as a consequence rather than a posit. as I am not privy to your actual conversation with said "religious" person, I chose to demonstrate the line of reasoning.

But by all means, continue to stick your head up your ass and think its "religion is the only source of goodness" statement, rather than a logical argument, predicated on human psychology and its biases.

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