71–80 of 178 posts
I've been an owner of a company for years now and I've always followed a few simple rules with the women who work for our company: - I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. - I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. - No touching (hugs, etc.) with the exception of handshakes and high fives. - I don't engage in, or tolerate, any sexist, sex…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm curious: would you call a man sweetie?
No just like I wouldn't call a girl bro or dude or m8. I see no issue in saying that to someone and have never had any problems saying it to the women I have been working with or know. I am well aware of when to do that and when to not. Yet now it's suddenly become an issue because some consider it sexual abuse.
All these incidents will end up causing segregation and unwillingness to hire/work with women.
I'm guessing it's going to create power differences, where those willing to deal with social complexity will end up on top. The more people you can talk to, the better your career will do. Much like any game of Settlers of Catan. These incidents have been pushed against for a while, and while the same rhetoric was used in the 70's, nonetheless here we are without gendered want ads.
> where those willing to deal with social complexity will
> end up on top
This doesn't just apply to sexual harassment. Sexual harassers are adept at wielding their power, which is an incredibly useful skill in any field. Very often that translates into socially aggressive behavior, even if it doesn't escalate to anything technically improper.[1] If the consequences aren't swift and transparent, theoretically we just end up evolving more skillful harassers and/or culling the aggressive non-harassers.
Just another way of looking at things. I wouldn't premise any real decisions on such a theory, but it's something I wonder about, at least in the business context. I mean, there's a reason success in business and politics correlates so strongly with so-called psychopathic character traits.
[1] What immediately comes to mind is that hilarious scene in Along Came Polly where Alec Baldwin violates almost every imaginable aspect of bathroom etiquette as part of a not-so-subtle dominance display: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHApjKcZAgI
Because powerful people cross these boundaries so much, you can literally signify power by exaggerating this sort of behavior. See, e.g., the above hilarious clip (because comedy is funnier when it's rooted in shared experience) and Donald Trump (from the truth is stranger than fiction department). In fact, I suspect that it's precisely because we (both men and women) are so used to powerful people crossing these boundaries that women find themselves in difficult situations where the nominal boundary had long been crossed yet they were nonetheless dazed by the turn to more sexually aggressive behavior.
I think the second order effects here are under appreciated. Ponder, which of these is overstepping? * Telling someone they look good today * Telling someone a very funny, yet lewd joke that you just thought up * Inviting someone for a drink after work * Telling someone they should dress better * Telling someone they are too uptight * Telling someone that, if they were nicer, they might get ahead more * Inviting a co…
I don’t consider these things just plain fine. I’d consider many of them somewhat offensive even if they came from a friend, regardless of gender: * Telling someone a very funny, yet lewd joke that you just thought up * Telling someone they should dress better * Telling someone they are too uptight * Telling someone that, if they were nicer, they might get ahead more I guess people are different...
People differ about what's fine in the list. But when a male doesn't think its fine, its still more-or-less fine by comparison.
The negative reactions of men to other men receiving those comments would not at all resemble [some of] the negative reactions of women receiving them. The downside is fairly bounded with men (guy thinks commentor is a jerk or weird) and unbounded with women (commentor loses their job because HR themselves is also playing it ultra safe).
Males can take more social risks with males, which may increase bonding (or it may not), which may leave women behind. That's a problem that's not easy to solve.
Males allowing males more leeway means males will have more opportunities to bond with males. "Boys club effect" grows stronger.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
What double standard? If a female co-worker did that to me I'd bring it up with HR. And – I'm making the assumption that you are probably in tech and therefore probably in a male-dominated workplace – unlike a woman in your situation, you can almost certainly call out the individual in question with zero fear of consequences to your career. Without knowing specifics, my prejudice is that you are in no position to com…
The double standard is that she still has her job but a man wouldn’t.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
The point is it can be difficult to treat women exactly the same as men, and that's in itself not fair really to anybody. One "solution" is to keep the workplace as sterile as possible. Get close to no-one, keep to yourself, all relationships remain starched & supremely professional. But ultimately that's not really a win either. Who wants to work with robots?
why is it difficult to treat women the same as men?
there are many things a man can say to another man that he can't say to a woman, and things he can't do.
or even if there is something he can say, he might not be totally confident he can say it. who among us has never said something that came out wrong?
"so just never say or do any of those things ever" is a poor solution.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
why is it difficult to treat women the same as men?
as has been said many times by now in this thread- there are many things a man can say to another man that he can't say to a woman, and things he can't do. or even if there is something he can say, he might not be totally confident he can say it. who among us has never said something that came out wrong? "so just never say or do any of those things ever" is a poor solution.
what are these mysterious things a man can say to other men he does not know that he couldn't say to a woman he doesn't know?
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why the downvotes? Debacle is right.
Treating a workplace like a setting requiring professional behavior is "overcompensating?" What the GP described is simply default behavior in a professional setting.