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Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

nytimes.com

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Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#61

Post by sliverstorm »

_m8fo wrote: post #5

I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about? Is it that difficult to just treat women -- not nicely -- but equally? This is kindergarten level stuff, people. Keep your hands to yourself, be nice, don't ask overly personal questions about people unless they share first, etc. I guarantee anyone reading this that if they just reflect behavior they'll be fine. This means if someone shares something moderately person…

The point is it can be difficult to treat women exactly the same as men, and that's in itself not fair really to anybody.

One "solution" is to keep the workplace as sterile as possible. Get close to no-one, keep to yourself, all relationships remain starched & supremely professional. But ultimately that's not really a win either. Who wants to work with robots?

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#62

Post by gizmo686 »

adriand wrote: post #10

I've been an owner of a company for years now and I've always followed a few simple rules with the women who work for our company: - I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. - I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. - No touching (hugs, etc.) with the exception of handshakes and high fives. - I don't engage in, or tolerate, any sexist, sex…

>I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense.

Should we discriminate against people who come from a minority dialect where this is less common?

>I don't engage in, or tolerate, any sexist ... conversations.

Yes you do. Your comment to which I am replying advocates for sexism.

>Incidentally I regularly break some of these rules with male employees, such as remarking on haircuts ("looking good", etc.), but it's different.

Congratulations, you are now excluding women from a class of social interactions that you have with men. This means that it will be harder for them to develop the type of interpersonal relationships with you that help them advance in the workplace. This is the exact same problem as not taking women out to lunch (for fear of accusastion of harrasment), just to a lesser degree.

Maybe the benifits of these policies are worth it, maybe not. However, it is far from simple. Especially if you have truly bought into the notion that any form of sexism is wrong, because the standards of conduct expected of you (or, at least, as you are describing them) are still inherently sexist.

Further, I think this type of comment does another disservice. It makes it sound like the types of harrasment we are talking about are just normal interactions where one side happens to be a women. However, when you look at the actual instances it is almost always the case that the behaviour is unambigously bad, and would still be so regardless of the genders. Seeing comments like yours generates alot of pushback from people who read it and then misunderstand what the original problem that we are talking about is.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#63

Post by sidlls »

atom-morgan wrote: post #41
debacle wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. > - I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. > If you have to overcompensate like Pence News flash, you're overcompensating as well.

Why the downvotes? Debacle is right.

Treating a workplace like a setting requiring professional behavior is "overcompensating?" What the GP described is simply default behavior in a professional setting.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#64

Post by noobermin »

ThomPete wrote: post #19
neom wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrongfully accused of what? OP literally described how not to be accused of anything 101. Treat women like your fellow man, treat women like humans.

I know what OP is describing and I am saying that that's not enough as there are difference of opinion with regards to what that means. For some saying sweetie is sexual abuse.

Allow the following thought experiment: would you call a co-worker who is non-white "brownie"? "Sweetie" has that connotation nowadays.

I can try to sympathetic to what seem like onerous rules, but refraining from "sweetie" seems like the least of problems.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#65

Post by dognotdog »

debacle wrote: post #14

I've overstepped with women. Women have overstepped with me. There is definitely a graciously wide gray area of "That came out differently than I meant it." The key is to: 1. Understand your own intent when saying/doing something. 2. Consider the potential negative ways something you may say could be perceived. 3. Understand the additional social responsibility that comes with being someone's superior, explicit or im…

I can see risk of that gray area: as long as everybody is on good terms, misunderstandings and unintentional wrongdoings are quickly righted, but when either party is antagonistic, that no longer works, and things can get ugly in both directions: unintended harm as well as false accusations both have real consequences.

But, human interaction will never be without ambiguity, and we cannot eliminate the risk of being misunderstood or deliberately misconstrued without (especially) marginalizing those who are at a disadvantage in the first place.

I feel like this is the right way to approach things: treat everyone respectfully and responsibly, even if there's a slight risk to it. (As a strawman: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety")

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#66

Post by _m8fo »

sliverstorm wrote: post #61
_m8fo wrote: post #5

I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about? Is it that difficult to just treat women -- not nicely -- but equally? This is kindergarten level stuff, people. Keep your hands to yourself, be nice, don't ask overly personal questions about people unless they share first, etc. I guarantee anyone reading this that if they just reflect behavior they'll be fine. This means if someone shares something moderately person…

The point is it can be difficult to treat women exactly the same as men, and that's in itself not fair really to anybody. One "solution" is to keep the workplace as sterile as possible. Get close to no-one, keep to yourself, all relationships remain starched & supremely professional. But ultimately that's not really a win either. Who wants to work with robots?

why is it difficult to treat women the same as men?

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#67

Post by hamandcheese »

> After-work events are “the front line” when it comes to harassment, and companies want “more safety precautions” now, she said.

This makes me sad. I feel like letting your guard down and getting a little wild can lead to some pretty good camaraderie and friendship.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#68

Post by _m8fo »

tree_of_item wrote: post #55
_m8fo wrote: post #5

I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about? Is it that difficult to just treat women -- not nicely -- but equally? This is kindergarten level stuff, people. Keep your hands to yourself, be nice, don't ask overly personal questions about people unless they share first, etc. I guarantee anyone reading this that if they just reflect behavior they'll be fine. This means if someone shares something moderately person…

This is a pretty disingenuous framing. "Be human", really? The point is that you can't actually literally treat people equally because there are plenty of things that are acceptable to say or do with another man but not with a woman.

what are some of the things, in your opinion, that are acceptable to say to a man you do not know, that are not acceptable to say to a women you do not know?

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#69

Post by rhelmer »

ThomPete wrote: post #47
xionon wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The metoo campaign IM basically allowed anything from actual abuse to catcalling be called sexual abuse. It expanded the definition of sexual abuse to basically align with only the most extreme feminists. Are you implying that catcalling someone, in or out of the workplace, should not be considered sexual abuse?

I am saying that there is a context to these kind of social dynamics which can't just be considered binary. It depends on the situation. All that get's lost in the panic.

Catcalling just seems like a bad example... I can't think of a situation where that seems appropriate?

I'm really not seeing why any of this belongs in the workplace. Why not bars, or if you're not the nightlife type, dating sites?

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#70

Post by tree_of_item »

debacle wrote: post #58
hasenj wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damned no matter what you do?

Just treat people nice. There's a way to compliment a woman's dress or hair without sounding like a creep. In fact, women who are friends do it all the time. It's part of how women form platonic relationships. One of the nicest compliments you can pay someone is noticing a conscious change that they've made in themselves!

> In fact, women who are friends do it all the time.

Part of the reason they don't come across as creepy is because they're, y'know, women.

> There's a way to compliment a woman's dress or hair without sounding like a creep.

This is entirely dependent on context, so as you've stated it it's false.

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