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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#661

Post by username90 »

newacct583 wrote: post #520
duxup wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand being hurt and more about the funny names list. But I think things have gotten out of hand when at an all hands meeting people are debating topics like: "we live in a white supremacist culture" Or demands from one employee to another at all hands meetings to denounce white supremacy. I doubt many companies could handle that right... and I'm sure many people would come away more hurt.

We don't know the context, but as to your second item... when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial? I know what you're really saying, which is that people on the right feel persecuted by being implicitly accused of being racists. And... y'know, that's fair. Probably 90% of the time in arguments like this that's an unfounded accusation made in bad faith just to score points. But still... the t…

> But you do, right? Denounce white supremacy? If your coworker demanded it, you might roll your eyes a bit but you'd do it? Right?

Bullying people creates enemies, not allies. They might not be a white supremacist but they would not denounce them either because you are being so annoying.

As a counter example, lets say someone comes to you in the middle of your work and demand you denounce black crime. Would you do it? Black crime is bad, right? Why wouldn't you denounce black crime, are you pro crime? That can't be true, can it, why can't you just denounce it? Its just a few words, simple right?

Now, you would likely just see that guy as an annoying racist rather than someone who wants law and order. Now from that perspective take a look at yourself and see how people see you when you try to force random people to denounce white supremacy.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#662

Post by valdiorn »

threeseed wrote: post #167
gowld wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird to criticize someone who wrote several books like "it doesn't have to be crazy at work" as "ads for basecamp" and then proceeded to run basecamp (his workplace) as a not-crazy environment. What else would you expect?

The idea that it is "his" workplace belongs in the Mad Men era of business. If you want to attract and keep talent you need to listen to their views and involve in them defining the values of the company.

That has nothing to do with the company being his. He's one of the larger share owners. The owners can shutter the company if they want, because it IS their company.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#663

Post by bellyfullofbac »

ryandrake wrote: post #614
wvenable wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial? I'm old and never in my life have I ever been asked to denounce white supremacy. If someone asked me to denounce it, I'd be insulted that they asked. There's some serious implications behind asking someone that question that I hope would never apply to me.

I don’t understand how white supremacy even comes up as a topic at a company that makes business collaboration software. Maybe I’m lucky but I’ve been in the industry for over 20 years, and it’s never come up as a topic of work discussion. Vi vs emacs? Yup. Debugging techniques? Sure. Linux vs Windows? Many times. White supremacy??? I can’t think of a single moment where that would have been on-topic for any tech job…

It probably came up because of the "funny" internal names they were giving to customers, some of them being in Asia and Africa. While some may view that as harmless fun, others might see it as mocking/insulting. Maybe it's a valid question whether the names came from wanting to feel superior.

If my wife told me the neighbors got a BMW, I could reply that "Huh, their bank is going to lose all their money", mocking them to make myself feel better after seeing that I'm not that well-off to be able to buy such a car. IMO it would be an attempt by me to gain some superiority...

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#664

Post by username90 »

myWindoonn wrote: post #590
SvenMarquardt wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why it is imperative society push back against the vilification of any race, including whites.

Humans only form one race. You're thinking of skin tones.

Humans forms a spectrum of races. The unscientific part are the crude categories USA uses, not the concept that humans from different parts of the world are genetically different enough to be called different races.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#665

Post by username90 »

calvinmorrison wrote: post #395
arp242 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nor did he see the irony in the fact that holding a person responsible for horrible action of people who look like them is the same way of thinking that leads bigots to blame all Arabs for the actions of the 9/11 hijackers. I like to do the "Muslim test" on these things: replace "white people" (or "men", or any other group) with "Muslims" and see how it sounds then. If it sounds yikes then it's probably not a good…

Muslims are adherents to a religion. Using "Arab" might be more relevant.

Most Muslims aren't Arabs.

As for the issue with Muslims, people actually do hate the religion more than the race. People have no issue with non-Muslim Arabs or northern Africans, they mostly dislike Muslims even white ones.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#666

Post by yunohn »

JPKab wrote: post #560
wmoxam wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Hutus and Tutsis didn’t start with some off-color ribbing and escalate from there Perhaps it didn't "start" with "off-color ribbing" but the usage of 'jokes' (see: Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines) to desensitize people to hatred towards the Tutsis is well documented. It was unpopular to speak out against this sort of thing, and certainly was something that got worse over time. Further, racial violence…

And yet this whole ridiculous movement is isolated to the United States and not at all popular in nations like Brazil which got dramatically more African slaves brought to them in the time of the slave trade. When you get sucked in by a US-centric ideology that is almost entirely based out of US universities you get these glaring holes in these theories that don't make sense as soon as you move them to another countr…

> South American countries which were huge destinations for African slaves

This is a gross misrepresentation of events.

They were colonized by European countries, who imported African slaves, to work alongside the SAmerican slaves for their economic exploitation.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#667

Post by MisterBastahrd »

arp242 wrote: post #612
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this entire mindset is wrong. I have no wealth nor power, I'm just a bloke trying to get by and struggling in life just like everyone else, not always equally successful I might add. Yet if you drove through my hometown, the chances of whether you'd have an encounter with a police officer would depend on the color of your skin and the type of car you drive. And store surveillance watches people closer depen…

"I'm oppressed more so it's okay for me to say horrible things!" Who wins with this? No one wins, no one has anything to gain. It's just venting and only breeds resentment. People turn this in to a "I'm oppressed more! No I'm oppressed more!" contest. That leads to nothing good. Accepting that racism exists, is bad, and should be addressed _and_ opposing this kind of stuff are not mutually exclusive. I think it's ent…

You tried to play the "treat people as individuals" card, followed it up with the "poor white person is gonna resent you" card, and finished off with the "I want decency" trope.

Congratulations, you hit the white supremacy apologia trifecta.

You could have scored bonus points if you had also included "not all white people" in your reply.

Did it ever occur to you that the reason that we have civil rights movements in the first place is because the state and corporations DO NOT "treat people as individuals?" Maybe you haven't noticed, but this is why people are pissed off in this day and age. It's why they have these discussions, and it's why they aren't willing to just ignore casual racism in the workplace.

Discussing factual information is not "kicking at another group of people." You can have ALL of your feelings hurt for all I care if it means that people aren't getting targeted by cops and harassed by store employees for the crime of being black and existing in society. White folks have been resenting discussing the problem of systemic racism and the role they play in it since Reconstruction. People are done tiptoeing around the issue so you can feel good about yourself and pretend everything is fine.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#668

Post by MisterBastahrd »

philosopher1234 wrote: post #570
sol_invictus wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite the opposite - it's a fool's errand harboring fragile employees who are willing to make such a show about a email containing juvenile name calling. You cannot build a solid baseline on an employee who can implode any second on the most miniscule issue. This will hurt Basecamp in the immediate term but over time they will be better off.

This comes off as though you didn't even read the comment you're replying to. I don't see how you can, in good faith, frame their point as "the most miniscule issue".

Read some of his other comments. It's not a coincidence that he pops up whenever there is a thread involving race on this site.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#669

Post by wyclif »

charlesu wrote: post #638
wyclif wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the point is that "black" is no more a cultural identity than "white" is. There are black Americans, black Englishmen, black Africans, etc.

Black is an overloaded term. It’s a race and an ethnicity. If you were to write about black people in Africa, it would be nonsensical to capitalize it because black doesn’t communicate any shared identity in that context. The right granularity is national, ethnic, or tribal. But Black is a cultural identity in the context of the United States. Blacks, or African-Americans, are ethnically distinct and have shared hist…

I disagree fundamentally with your take because I approach this subject academically instead of in pop culture terms. Both blacks and whites have distinct ethnic groups that are more granular. Just as whites are ethnically English, Irish, German, Scandinavian, Italian, etc., blacks are ethnically Akan, Cuban, Caribbean, Abyssian, Fulani, Zulu, Oromo, and more.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#670

Post by Tainnor »

simondotau wrote: post #477
Tainnor wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't imply that I have to like his self-promotion book. After all, if I'm to read a book I want to get something out of it. As I already mentioned, the book has good parts, but it reads quite jarring in many places. Also, I guess this is personal, but a little humility is good for everyone, IMHO, and doesn't necessarily contradict a healthy dose of self-confidence either. DHH seems to have little of it — at l…

Just because someone isn't skilled at the traditional, mainstream Western methods of conveying empathy doesn't mean they actually lack empathy. This ought to be obvious when considering persons on the extreme end of the autism spectrum, but as time goes on we're learning that the spectrum might subtly encompass far more people than we ever realised. (With no small amount of irony, I find that many "normal" people hav…

What does this have to do with my comment?
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