How Basecamp Blew Up • Hacker News Board

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#611

Post by ylem » Wed, May 05, 2021, 5:20 AM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #584

ylem wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you about the decision not to reflexively fire those responsible for the list. Though for the conversation to veer towards white supremacy and for ~30% of the company to leave, I do wonder if something else was going on there. I could be a bad judge of humans, but if it was just one guy overreacting, I would think that fewer people would have quit.

To be honest, I would leave almost any company that offered me 6 months salary in severance, if for no other reason than to work on projects for a couple of months while seeking a next job and then making double salary for four months. I passed up that opportunity once (and it was the right choice because it was my first tech company experience,I needed to build up years behind the keyboard and a portfolio), but I de…

I guess it's just a different way of thinking that I'm unfamiliar with. I have turned down other job offers (30-40% salary increase--not 2x) because I like where I am--coworkers, projects, autonomy, city, etc.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#612

Post by arp242 » Wed, May 05, 2021, 5:21 AM UTC

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #565

arp242 wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this entire mindset is wrong. I have no wealth nor power, I'm just a bloke trying to get by and struggling in life just like everyone else, not always equally successful I might add. Groups of people are comprised individuals, with large degrees of variation in any group. Using averages can be important for some things, but context and nuance matters a lot. Not every white person "holds most of the wealth and…

> I think this entire mindset is wrong. I have no wealth nor power, I'm just a bloke trying to get by and struggling in life just like everyone else, not always equally successful I might add. Yet if you drove through my hometown, the chances of whether you'd have an encounter with a police officer would depend on the color of your skin and the type of car you drive. And store surveillance watches people closer depen…

"I'm oppressed more so it's okay for me to say horrible things!"

Who wins with this? No one wins, no one has anything to gain. It's just venting and only breeds resentment. People turn this in to a "I'm oppressed more! No I'm oppressed more!" contest. That leads to nothing good. Accepting that racism exists, is bad, and should be addressed _and_ opposing this kind of stuff are not mutually exclusive. I think it's entirely consistent with the values of treating people as individuals.

When all messaging is race-focused and people are constantly antagonizing against a certain group, then don't be surprised if people, especially lesser advantaged ones, will feel left out, and that's not even all that unreasonable.

You don't empower a group of people by kicking at another of people group.

People talk about "white privilege" as if that's somehow a problem. It's not; it's how everyone should be treated. That this doesn't happen is horrible, but I resent this usage of "white privilege" that almost tries to to guilt me for being treated with decency, or is being used to dismiss the very real problems and challenges people of all backgrounds are facing (including white people).

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#613

Post by Ygg2 » Wed, May 05, 2021, 5:22 AM UTC

newacct583 wrote: post #520

duxup wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand being hurt and more about the funny names list. But I think things have gotten out of hand when at an all hands meeting people are debating topics like: "we live in a white supremacist culture" Or demands from one employee to another at all hands meetings to denounce white supremacy. I doubt many companies could handle that right... and I'm sure many people would come away more hurt.

We don't know the context, but as to your second item... when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial? I know what you're really saying, which is that people on the right feel persecuted by being implicitly accused of being racists. And... y'know, that's fair. Probably 90% of the time in arguments like this that's an unfounded accusation made in bad faith just to score points. But still... the t…

> But you do, right? Denounce white supremacy?

Sure, if the other party apologies to me (a Slav) first for their bigotry, racism, and slaver history.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#614

Post by ryandrake » Wed, May 05, 2021, 5:22 AM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #529

newacct583 wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't know the context, but as to your second item... when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial? I know what you're really saying, which is that people on the right feel persecuted by being implicitly accused of being racists. And... y'know, that's fair. Probably 90% of the time in arguments like this that's an unfounded accusation made in bad faith just to score points. But still... the t…

> when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial? I'm old and never in my life have I ever been asked to denounce white supremacy. If someone asked me to denounce it, I'd be insulted that they asked. There's some serious implications behind asking someone that question that I hope would never apply to me.

I don’t understand how white supremacy even comes up as a topic at a company that makes business collaboration software. Maybe I’m lucky but I’ve been in the industry for over 20 years, and it’s never come up as a topic of work discussion. Vi vs emacs? Yup. Debugging techniques? Sure. Linux vs Windows? Many times. White supremacy??? I can’t think of a single moment where that would have been on-topic for any tech job I’ve ever done. What on Earth kind of software are you all working on?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#615

Post by jolux » Wed, May 05, 2021, 5:24 AM UTC

gustavo-fring wrote: post #606

jolux wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ryan Singer is the higher-up mentioned who said in the middle of an all-hands that trying to fix Basecamp’s racial insensitivity problem would end up targeting him as a white man.

Yes and the discussion is about how we do conflate the two, sometimes correctly and sometimes incorrectly.

The discussion is about how a company should handle a situation where one employee is making a significant number of others feel unwelcome because of the color of their skin or their commitment to anti-racism. Party politics only factors into it if you think people make decisions about who to associate with primarily by extrapolating voting habits from others’ behavior instead of assessing the behavior itself.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#616

Post by philosopher1234 » Wed, May 05, 2021, 5:24 AM UTC

devoutsalsa wrote: post #511

Trasmatta wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might have been the most important meeting in Basecamp's history, so it just feels odd that the co founder was apparently so sick he couldn't sit at his desk for an hour or two. Or even just during the initial introductions before he turned his camera off. Maybe he was that sick, but I would be kind of pissed if I were one of the employees. The power dynamic is weird, because if a regular employee were sick they…

After experiencing a pandemic, if someone says they are sick, I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I, on the other hand, do not feel the need to participate in DHH apologia.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#617

Post by sol_invictus » Wed, May 05, 2021, 5:25 AM UTC

philosopher1234 wrote: post #566

sol_invictus wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hordes going around asking you to "denouce white supremacism" isn't anything to do with white supremacy, it's a power play to subvert. Again, it helps to reverse the roles here to see how idiotic this is: imagine someone going into a black neighbourhood asking regular people to denounce gang violence.

you think they would resist denouncing it, despite the racism in that question?

Of course they would and they should, much like I would tell someone asking me to denounce white supremacy to f-off despite me being white.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#618

Post by Ygg2 » Wed, May 05, 2021, 5:25 AM UTC

wmoxam wrote: post #536

arp242 wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps it didn't "start" with "off-color ribbing" but the usage of 'jokes' (see: Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines) to desensitize people to hatred towards the Tutsis is well documented. And they were made in the context of a general propaganda/hate campaign. The medium is the same, the context couldn't be more different. It's the context that matters 100%, not the medium (jokes in this case) in and of the…

So jokes that desensitize people to hatred is cool?

Spilling gasoline onto a floor isn't a problem. Spilling gasoline into a raging inferno is.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#619

Post by comp_throw7 » Wed, May 05, 2021, 5:27 AM UTC

etchalon wrote: post #465

freddie_mercury wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that many employees think they can get another, comparable, job quickly then that is implicitly saying Basecamp's overall compensation package (including how interesting the work is, extra time off in summer, profit sharing, etc, etc) isn't actually especially unique or valuable. Which kind of says something not great about Basecamp in and of itself.

They also made their overall compensation package a lot loss less attractive with 10% profit sharing as a replacement for lifestyle subsidies.

Do you mean a lot more attractive? I would be shocked if the aforementioned lifestyle subsidies were valued by the median employee at even $1000/year; if the profit sharing came out to less than 5 figures in a normal year (again, for a median employee) I would likewise be surprised.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#620

Post by simondotau » Wed, May 05, 2021, 5:28 AM UTC

_pmf_ wrote: post #610

newacct583 wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't know the context, but as to your second item... when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial? I know what you're really saying, which is that people on the right feel persecuted by being implicitly accused of being racists. And... y'know, that's fair. Probably 90% of the time in arguments like this that's an unfounded accusation made in bad faith just to score points. But still... the t…

> when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial White people existing is not "white supremacy". White people existing in positions of power is also not "white supremacy". "White supremacy" is an ideology that declares the White race as genetically superior. (Yes, I know the left tries to shift this as it sees convenient.) Claiming that Basecamp has a problem with "white supremacy" would be a blat…

Watch out, I get the feeling that "white supremacy" now also means other things. Remember we're all expected to be up-to-date on the latest definitions of Words To Describe The Bad People.