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Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

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Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#651

Post by flaviusb »

bobwaycott wrote: post #649
flaviusb wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If person A has power and person B does not, then A exerting their power against B and B exerting their (lack of) power against A are not symmetrical situations, even though both A and B are people. The 'instance level' sexist act may be the same in both cases, but the problem is the 'structural level' sexism which is reinforced only by one of those acts. So, saying that 'sexism is sexism' is an equivocation, and not…

You're rather egregiously conflating distinct issues here. You're also committing petitio principii --i.e., begging the question. You assume your premise(s) is/are true and, therefore, your conclusion is true. Laying out your initial logic, in order: p1: A has power p2: B has !power p3: A exerts power p4: B exerts !power c: if p1 and p2, given p3 and p4: asymmetrical situation Of course it is! And yet nothing is prov…

To be pedantic: 'begging the question' is when you import your conclusion into your premises, not when you show that the logical task has been satisfied but merely assume that the material task has been satisfied. Your identification of the problems with my informal reasoning is likewise totally wrong.

Your attempt at informal logic is also pretty laughable. I'll try to give a better response than this tomorrow though in another reply, as you seem to be actually engaging with this, which is actually super awesome (it also doesn't hurt that my degrees were in Logic, and I hardly ever get to bust that stuff out in forum comments).

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#652

Post by dingledongle »

crystallize wrote: post #623
commentor wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI - she took your picture and published it, without a model release . . . technically, per the letter of the law - that is illegal . . . just sayin'

Her taking a picture and posting it to Twitter (which is different from publishing) is not illegal. She didn't need a model release. The only time you need a model release is if you intend to sell the photograph of a person to be used for commercial purposes. You know, sell the picture to a company for the company to use it in an advertisement. At that time, a model release is required. No monetary gain was acquired…

PS Crystillize if you had any actual experience with the law rather than Internet armchair surfing, you would know that Twitter is no different than TV when you're sitting in front of a judge defending your case.

If she's making money off her Twitter posts -- and it appears she was and still is -- she better be ready to pony up if the people she's using to generate that money ask for their fair share of it. In this case, she's received national attention and will probably spin it into a profitable book or something. Not so for the victims. If these guys don't sue it's more likely because it's just not their style. But if the tables were turned, and they photographed her with libelous remarks attached, I'll bet you lunch that she'd sue them. They have a case if they want it. And by the way, they claim she did libel them. The forking part of the conversation had no sexual connotation; and she has yet to provide anything resembling a direct quote except for the expression "big dongle." Which is pretty funny and fairly harmless, frankly. She spiced it up with the "forking" thing because she's a tabloid journalist. And after this no serious publication would hire her as a journalist, because she doesn't fact check. "Hey guys, I'm about to tell 10,000 subscribers your "forking" joke. Can you say it again so I can actually hear it?" That is how professional journalists behave, because they have a spine.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#653

Post by fandoth »

adriarichards wrote: post #27
mr-hank wrote: post #23

Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes…

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

You set women back 20 years by standing up to what exactly? You can't handle two men making jokes amongst themselves? Yet your twitter makes similar jokes with your friends? Your friend on twitter argued it was because of an established relationship and context. I would argue that is the exact same situation with the two men. The only variable in this entire situation is YOU Adria. It makes me sick that you have used your social media skills to demonize these men, but your actions are truly devious and evil. Pycon code of conduct? LOL. That man has a family, and lost his job for an alleged joke to a friend. Furthermore, this man is taking the high road and not fighting back. Sounds to me that if you had spoken to him privately and told him you were offended, then he prolly would have provided you with a sincere apology. Instead, you ruined his life, career, etc. People like you are leeches on society IMO. Hope I didn't make any sexual references you might be offended by.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#654

Post by fandoth »

wilmoore wrote: post #446
cheez wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I hope they realize what a liability they have on their hands. For example, imagine if a developer ACCIDENTALLY looked at her while walking by. Can you say sexual harassment lawsuit? LOL. This woman is bad news.

Can you say sexual harassment lawsuit? LOL. This woman is bad news. This is exactly the type of attitude that perpetuates the idea that a woman should not say or do anything if uncomfortable. see: https://twitter.com/jackdanger/status/314604363614134272

Not at all. Why? Because we are speaking out against a woman? She is a social media expert, she knows people like you will defend her simply because she is a woman. As a social scientist, I am trained to only look at what is I portent and that is the "event" or "experience" in question. She abused her social media powers, as noted by the company that fired her shortly after. Plus, she was supported by other companies not wanting to look sexist. In reality she has no proof what this guy said or did. The story she tells is suspect at best, and he has represented himself in an admirable manner. You are a joke. People like you and her are what is wrong with America. Thin skin but a viscious bite is what you and Adria have in common.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#655

Post by fandoth »

fein wrote: post #527
sp332 wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy apologized, and everyone was satisfied at that point. No idea why PlayHaven fired him but that wasn't something she asked for.

PlayHaven only fired their employee due to the public exposure this all received, which started with Adria's tweet.

Fein is 100% correct. The issued a public statement.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#656

Post by fandoth »

adriarichards wrote: post #27
mr-hank wrote: post #23

Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes…

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

I hope over the course of this next year you become jobless and blacklisted. I do not even know this guy, but YOU ruined his life, not the people that fired him. You acknowledged it yourself that a twitter firestorm erupted demonizing this man. THAT firestorm was started and fueled by you.

Facts are this:You are a joke, you will amount to nothing historically, your mark on history will be as a woman that ruined the lives of three children supported by their hardworking father, you are a social media tool, dongles-computers-n' forking-oh my!

I honestly hope the tone of this story begins demonizing YOU over the next few days and weeks. Furthermore, I wish Hank the best, you have learned that there are @$$h@t$ like Adria in this world and to avoid them at all costs. I wish you luck Hank. Adria, well you already destroyed your reputation, LOL, you do not need my help.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#657

Post by Lulu12 »

abentwookie wrote: post #642
mnicole wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully you are still reading the comments here as I'm just catching up on all of this and watching how it is continuing to unfold. Please don't apologize. As other women before me already have, I want to apologize for this incident; honestly I probably would have been giggling myself if I was in an earshot of you. With respect to Adria's past and her sensitivity to the triggers she refers to, a comment like this i…

Its simple: When you are in public learn to think before you speak. Its really not that difficult. I have enough sense not just blurt out things that could offend others when I am in public so I don't have these problems.

Thank you for being a voice of reason here. I think AR went too far by posting a pic and hunting people down, but her objection has merit. When you're at a conference in an official capacity, don't general workplace rules apply? And don't most workplace sexual harassment rules include something about not using sexual language and not making the workplace uncomfortable for others? Richards could've said something to the men directly, or to staff at the conference. It didn't have to get so out of hand, and two people didn't have to lose their jobs.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#659

Post by JohnBooty »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #643
abentwookie wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its simple: When you are in public learn to think before you speak. Its really not that difficult. I have enough sense not just blurt out things that could offend others when I am in public so I don't have these problems.

> blurt out things that could offend others Do you have a comprehensive list? Is it calibrated to what country or audience you are in, or do you just avoid saying anything that could offend anyone anywhere. I made a joke about corruption once that hit too close to home for the people I was with, if I would have thought harder about where I was I should have kept my mouth shut.

There's no comprehensive list, and it would be impossible to make one. Anything we do might potentially offend somebody, somewhere, and nobody can understand every little nuance of every culture and every individual's life experiences.

Like, what if you're wearing a green sweater, and somebody was once assaulted by a person wearing a green sweater and your sweater really upsets somebody? There's no way we possibly could have known.

It's really complicated sometimes.

Here's the thing though: it's not always complicated!

Sexual comments around women we don't know? Totally an easy one. We should avoid those comments. Some women don't care, some find them hilarious, but a significant portion of women really don't want to hear that kind of talk from men they don't know.

We don't have to be mind readers, or even particularly sensitive to understand this. (In fact, we don't even have to understand it. Just memorize it.)

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#660

Post by JohnBooty »

chrisivens wrote: post #596
mnicole wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, I was confused why he thought I would be offended by that when my point was that the joke was a non-issue. That sketch is fantastic and isn't new to me. What I find so silly about this whole thing - which is exactly what the skit helps imply - is that you can hardly even say the word dongle without laughing; you don't even need to know what it really is to see the low-hanging humor in it (no pun intended). It'…

Although I commented on the wrong part of the thread, my point was that if we are able to accept a sketch on tv mentioning a dongle in good humour, why is it a sackable offence within earshot of someone? Granted it's toilet humour but who doesn't like that every now and again. Being a programmer, I'd love to have more women in my industry and indeed within my workplace. The problem has been exacerbated by Adria and h…

  "if we are able to accept a sketch on tv mentioning a
  dongle in good humour, why is it a sackable offence 
  within earshot of someone?"
I don't have an opinion on whether or not it should be sackable/firable, but there's a big difference between something on television and something in real life.

Would you really see no difference between your mother hearing a penis joke on television and a stranger telling her one on a train?

If you hear a joke you don't like on television, you change the channel and maybe don't watch that show again. Somebody's making sexualized conversation you don't want to hear in public, it's not always fair/convenient/possible for you to leave. In the case of the PyCon thing, perhaps Adria could have handled it better, but why should she have to give up her seat and leave the presentation (or even go to a worse seat) because she doesn't want to hear the guys behind her making sexual jokes?

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