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Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#641

Post by BizarroLand »

mlyle wrote: post #628
BizarroLand wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought it would be great if there were rentable battery trailers that had an extra full charge or two built in, plus maybe some extra storage. uHaul could make a killing off of them for people who want to take their EV on a road trip. If you could get 600 miles off of a single combined full charge you would be in the range of reasonable American road trip distance, and you could make the choice to stop and eat…

Even with a smaller trailer, though, I'd expect a 33% or so range penalty-- it's just not too much of a win. You don't make it anywhere near twice as far.

Even so, assuming there were a nationwide network of them, you could pull in, swap trailers, and be on your way in 15 minutes.

Of course, this is in an ideal world where everything goes my way. I wonder if the penalty would be as high as 33%. Seems like it would be simple to make a maximally aerodynamic battery trailer since human comfort doesn't have to be considered. Then you're only adding the weight and drag of a few hundred lbs of trailer and battery.

I would think the penalty would be in the high single digits or at most in the very low double digits which could be offset by having 1.5x or 2x normal battery capacity in the trailer.

*Ninja edit, I decided to look this up. The Model Y's battery is 1700 lbs, so you are absolutely right that there would be a significant distance penalty adding that much weight to the vehicle plus the trailer weight and the battery armor as well if that isn't included in the weight.

https://www.carparts.com/blog/how-heavy-is-a-tesla-battery/

Curb weight of the Model Y is also 4400 lbs, so having to tow a 2500 lb trailer would be a significant hassle.

Perhaps that could be offset by making the trailer smart and adding motors to it that the main brain could control through the power link. If it could push its own weight and it had a 1.5x battery, and if it also had regenerative braking, then it could get close to doubling the distance.

Then again, each trailer would cost right about the same as a full vehicle, and would require an entire factory to be spun up to make them, and it would be an incredibly valuable product and therefore ripe for theft.

Lots of negatives, not a lot of positives.

It would be better all in all to be able to hot swap the batteries then. With standardized batteries put onto an integrated sled system, a robot at the fuel pump could pull the discharged battery and put it on a battery tester/charger and insert a fresh charged battery in its place.

I guess that would be more like an oil change or system flush, but the advantages would be manifold. Batteries wouldn't be the weak spot in the system any longer. The likelihood of people keeping batteries until they degraded would be significantly reduced, problematic batteries could be identified and repaired or recycled before they erupted, and assuming that the system was in wide usage it could enable road trippers to stay on the road longer quicker and waste less daylight.

Plus, for manufacturers, fuel stations, and mechanics, it would be an opportunity to make more money off of vehicle owners while providing safer, longer lasting vehicles to customers.

It's probably still a post-scarcity pipe dream though.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#642

Post by rootusrootus »

x86x87 wrote: post #288
rootusrootus wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most normal Tesla owners I'm familiar with just come to accept that the website range claim is complete horseshit. They go on with their lives and just don't worry about it. For around town, it'll get somewhat close to rated range anyway, and road trips aren't that common for most people. The supercharger network is pretty good, and if you have to stop every 200 miles instead of the rated 358, then so be it. Personal…

No. Sorry. Making the claim that most tesla owners do X is in my opinion horseshit. Tesla should be ashamed of themselves and should be sued into oblivion for false advertising. This is not a +/- 5%. This is a massive lie and a coverup.

Those seem orthogonal, and not related. I assert that yes, most Tesla owners just deal with it. But yes, it's unacceptable and Tesla should be held to account for it. Both can be true.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#643

Post by rootusrootus »

panick21_ wrote: post #374
x86x87 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Sorry. Making the claim that most tesla owners do X is in my opinion horseshit. Tesla should be ashamed of themselves and should be sued into oblivion for false advertising. This is not a +/- 5%. This is a massive lie and a coverup.

They use the official process. Sue the EPA.

Sort of. The official process comes in a couple different flavors, and there are absolutely ways to game it. It's not like EPA is running the tests themselves, they just write the rules. Also, AFAICT there is no penalty for sandbagging (see also Porsche). Tesla could give realistic numbers but instead ran the tests in the most optimistic way possible and chose the best numbers they could plausibly claim to be EPA formula.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#644

Post by rootusrootus »

anurag6892 wrote: post #541
rootusrootus wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most normal Tesla owners I'm familiar with just come to accept that the website range claim is complete horseshit. They go on with their lives and just don't worry about it. For around town, it'll get somewhat close to rated range anyway, and road trips aren't that common for most people. The supercharger network is pretty good, and if you have to stop every 200 miles instead of the rated 358, then so be it. Personal…

EPA should also add multiple range estimates say at 70mph, 80mph. Lots of people drive 80mph+ on the highway. And buyers should be made aware they will be using only 70% (10 to 80) of the battery between highway charger stops. Charging gets really slow after 80%.

I agree on both counts. More data would be better. And for fun they could just mandate it across-the-board. It would be halfway interesting to see the impact of heating/cooling and speed on ICE vehicles too.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#645

Post by aaronblohowiak »

chihuahua wrote: post #610
aaronblohowiak wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Wind resistance increases EXPONENTIALLY with speed. And the power required to move against the air is the cube, not the square!

Neither v^2 nor v^3 is exponential. They are polynomial functions. Exponential would be if wind resistance or power or fuel consumption were c^x for some constant c. It seems to have become fashionable to say "exponentially" or even "EXPONENTIALLY" when you mean it's a rapidly increasing function, but to the technically-minded, whom I would hope to find on HN, there is still a clear-cut difference between exponential…

I think the fact that polynomials contain an exponent forgives that particular degradation of precision in the vernacular. I corrected the OP by adding context so onlookers could know just how fast the power requirements grow without poo-pooing their choice of words. In a programming context, extacting language precision is beneficial. Shooting the shit in an Internet forum I think we can tolerate imprecision in others without causing a dust up. Now tell me how do you feel when someone says “it’s pretty unique”

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#646

Post by rootusrootus »

dietsche wrote: post #595
rootusrootus wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've never owned a gas vehicle that met it's EPA range and the Tesla is no different. No one takes EPA MPG * GALLONS of gas and expects it to be a real life estimate of range. Because gas stations are still far more common than fast chargers. We'll get there with EV charging, but right now range does matter, especially if you routinely see half of what was advertised.

I had a similar thought before we purchased our Tesla. Our actual experience has been much better than expected. Here's why: 1) Everyday Driving / Commuting: Much like an ICE vehicle where one thinks about 1/2 tank, 1/4 tank, etc... we think about percentages. For us, a round-trip to the in-laws is 50% in the summer and 60% in the winter, for example. Commuting round trip is ~15% in the winter, and ~12% in the summer…

I agree generally, I've never really had a range anxiety problem on either of my Teslas. And 100% agree on the daily charging, too.

But I do think we're not to the point where we can just nonchalantly hit the road without really thinking about charging. It is part of the planning in more detail than I'd usually spend with a gas car. Totally manageable, but still.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#647

Post by cs702 »

addisonl wrote: post #603
cs702 wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not my experience. Let me add that at first, I thought the materials and build of my first Tesla felt "cheap" and "plasticky." Over time, however, I've been pleasantly surprised at how well they've held up. My oldest Tesla is now three years old, and it still looks and feels new. I could never say that about the BMWs, MBs, and Porsches I've owned over the years.

Tesla is one of the least reliable brands you can buy: https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-vehi... Only Ford/Lincoln, Audi, and Land Rover are worse—all notoriously unreliable brands.

Consumer Reports and others have found that most of the "issues" reported with EVs in these rankings are software glitches, often solvable with a reboot or an over-the-air software update: https://www.greencars.com/expert-insights/are-electric-cars-...

Those findings are consistent with my experience.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#648

Post by wil421 »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #270
wil421 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don’t have the iX3 in the US (yet?). I was looking at the x5 plug in hybrid with ~40 miles electric range and the normal b58 straight 6 motor. My wife has the X7, we have 3 kids and hobbies so I’m not sure if even an i5 would work. The new X5 headlights are not my favorite. Do you like the BMW electric system?

The X5 hybrid is a wonderful car to drive, but as an EV it's... not good. You get less than 1/10th the range of a full Tesla Model Y ( The BMW also includes a tiny 16A charger, whereas the old i3 had a 32A charger. This limits charging to ~3 range-miles per hour, making public chargers basically pointless (again compare to the LR Tesla Model Y which has a 48A charger and can add 40+ range-miles in an hour.) In gas-on…

I need to be able to tow about 5,000 from time to time. The B58 will do that and the EV side will get me to work and back without much if any gas.

An EV is not an option for my lifestyle at this time. Once my 3 are out of car seats and/or strollers a sedan EV might work.

There’s always a Hummer EV or even cyber truck but that’s not quite my cup of tea.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#649

Post by dzhiurgis »

01100011 wrote: post #593
jayd16 wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You drive 100 miles and spent hours charging? That makes no sense. We're you towing something?

Exactly. Nope, no towing. Drove about half those miles and spent about 45 minutes at a supercharger, then drove another 35 or so and spent a little over an hour at another one. In the second case I was trying to get to 90% so I could return the car above the 72% I picked it up at. We ran the A/C most of the time. I was driving pretty conservatively with about 50/50 highway/city streets. I did try to show off the acce…

1h45m at supercharger, depending on charging curve, should result in 200-300 miles. So maybe you were just queueing at supercharger or something else doesn't check out at all.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#650

Post by dzhiurgis »

bsagdiyev wrote: post #635
aydyn wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can just play games on your phone, or take a quick power nap (don't forget to set a timer!) It's awesome!

Get the fuck off the road with that attitude. You're why people die.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
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