Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#521

Post by stetrain » Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

steveBK123 wrote: post #516

stetrain wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most accurate by what standard? Range depends on a bunch of factors. The range you got going to the store yesterday is not the range you will get driving to your friend’s house tomorrow. The car doesn’t know where you are going, whether it is city or highway driving, whether or not there is an elevation change, unless you tell it by navigating somewhere. It could take a guess, but that guess still has plenty of chanc…

Why should the car use an average .250 kWh/mi hardcoded rate on a car I have owned for 4 years when it knows my lifetime average is 0.300 kWh/mi? There's plenty of smarter things it can do by default other than "its hard, meh". They are gonna figure out how to do coast to coast self driving this year but can't project a reasonable battery range estimate given temperature/driver history/weather? Do they need more GPUs…

That might be a useful metric but it won’t always be the most accurate.

If you mostly drive around town, that estimate will be way off when you get on a highway to go to Grandma’s house.

There’s probably a better way to do it, but Tesla seems to be optimizing for avoiding the “why does the website say 300mi but my car shows 200mi fully charged” support question, in exchange for a different set of support questions.

I think ideally the car would give a best guess estimate, along with a clear breakdown of why this is more or less than the rated range. I just don’t think that’s clearly the “most accurate” option. Most accurate requires knowing where you are going.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#522

Post by andykellr » Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

k4rli wrote: post #365

andykellr wrote: post #353

[flagged]

Sounds like you're an American who's either a Tesla employee or only owned American cars before. Their quality is mid-tier at best but the software appears to be so dangerous that I avoid driving behind/in front of a Tesla (in Europe).

Not the case and I just mean best overall, not without flaws. Software is better than any car I've experienced.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#523

Post by aydyn » Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

Lendal wrote: post #349

pilingual wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was your thought process when you spent $10,000 on "FSD?"

I thought it would be cool. I didn't consider the fact I don't actually like it when someone else is driving. I don't like being a passenger even if a person I trust is driving, so why would an AI be different? Apparently I like to drive more than I thought I did. Also, I didn't realize how many restrictions there would be. You have to keep your hands applying constant tension on the steering wheel, and there's actua…

You can just play games on your phone, or take a quick power nap (don't forget to set a timer!)

It's awesome!

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#524

Post by waffletower » Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

jvanderbot wrote: post #8

I have a model Y. I hate almost everything about it. But most germane, The "Battery meter" at the top of the display is total bunk. That's got to be "rosy" numbers. It'll display a the battery in miles, but it's at least 25% inflated. However if you punch in a destination, you'll get exact numbers, and those are insanely reliable. It claims (and I don't believe any claims coming from tesla) that it'll factor wind, el…

I find the range numbers on my Model Y to be fairly accurate, when I choose and am able to drive at optimal speeds on level ground (which is the situation on some trips). 60-65 MPH is the commonly sighted range for the dual motor Model Y. The range does attempt to factor in heat pump usage, and I am unclear how accurate those adjustments are.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#525

Post by firesteelrain » Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

sib wrote: post #381

dinom wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> able to get a tow truck capable of transporting my car (turns out you need one that has a full bed because of the regenerative breaking Sounds incredibly short-sighted that the regenerative braking can't be temporarily disabled by the driver... two people can push a "regular" car to a nearby gas station in a pinch. Even one person can push a smaller car around a parking lot if necessary. That said, they often send…

If you put the car in car wash mode, you would be able to push the car: Controls > Service > Car Wash Mode And then "Enable Free Roll"

... assuming you have battery (which he didn't)

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#526

Post by hooloovoo_zoo » Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

treyd wrote: post #518

01100011 wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I was stranded due to a bug in the fuel level indicator and mileage remaining estimate on my 2017 Subaru Outback. Subaru knows about the issue but you have to bring it to their attention if you want a fix. Not giving Tesla a pass here, just mentioning that it's not unique to them.

>Subaru knows about the issue but you have to bring it to their attention if you want a fix. This seems incredibly irresponsible when people could die from being stranded when the meter lies about being able to get home like the other commenter described.

As a fellow 2017 Outback owner, Subaru at least sent out a notice to have this fixed for free in April 2019.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#527

Post by unregistereddev » Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #458

afavour wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally the first paragraph of the piece: > He expected to get something close to the electric sport sedan’s advertised driving range: 353 miles on a fully charged battery. > He soon realized he was sometimes getting less than half that much range We’re not talking about a couple of miles here or there. And if Tesla discovered that range issues (even if entirely based around customer perception) were a widespread e…

> > He soon realized he was sometimes getting less than half that much range Either he has VERY BAD driving habits, or he's driving in some extreme scenarios. I have a Model 3 Performance that's estimated to have a 299 mile range, IIRC. I've driven at 75 mph in 30F weather, and it reduced my range to about 230 miles. That's just shy of 25%, which while is certainly a significant reduction, is not the >50% the guy was…

> Do people think they'll get the full EPA range at 70+ mph with the heat or A/C on?

That likely depends partly on what car they are coming from. Some manufacturers overstate EPA range, others understate it. If they're coming from a Ford EcoBoost or a 15 year old Hyundai, they probably don't expect to achieve EPA ratings at all. If they're coming from a Toyota or a VW, then yes, they probably do think they'll get the full EPA range at 70+ mph with hvac on.

My old Toyota ICE will happily meet the EPA ratings at 70mph with the AC running full blast. If I slow down to 65mph and turn off the AC, I can easily get 10% more range than the EPA estimates would suggest.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#528

Post by AuthorizedCust » Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 5:30 PM UTC

brookst wrote: post #97

meroes wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s never been the case. Drive down moderately steep grades and shift to a low gear to spare you breaks, for example. It’s the same argument. We don’t drive black boxes. Anecdote, a relative drove trucks in the Korean War and after, his vehicles lasted much longer per miles driven without maintenance due to how he drove.

Would you expect manufacturers to publish maintenance schedules assuming everyone drives like your relative, or based on maybe the 25th percentile of how people actually drive? IMO product designers should not assume that the typical customer is a hyper-optimizer.

> IMO product designers should not assume that the typical customer is a hyper-optimizer.

It’s not just an opinion. If you design that way, you’re misrepresenting truth for the vast majority of drivers.

Hard to distinguish that from lying.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#529

Post by ke88y » Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 5:30 PM UTC

ak217 wrote: post #514

ke88y wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that reputation already died in the last 2-3 years. It's now pretty common in my circle to hear people say they'll pay a premium to not own a Tesla. Primarily because of lots of bad experiences with build quality/repairs, but also because there are now lots of high quality alternatives. Namely Rivian and Lucid, but also the legacy automakers (two friends bought mach-es recently and there's a smattering of F-1…

I don't know much about Lucid, but Rivian in its current form is not sustainable. Their cars are incredibly overweight and overengineered, their COGS/BOM is out of control, and with the end of ZIRP I'm not sure they have the time and financing to fix these problems at the burn rate they are at. Don't get me started on their "environmentalist adventure vehicle" marketing that's putting 7000-pound cars on mountain trai…

I agree, and drive begrudgingly in any case. I'm merely observing that "Tesla" used to be a signal brand and it's now somewhere in-between "cheap plastic brand" and "anti-signal brand".

> Don't get me started on their "environmentalist adventure vehicle" marketing that's putting 7000-pound cars on mountain trails.

Car adventuring as an ends unto itself is something I just don't get, and since I can't really say anything constructive or nice about the entire activity/scene the EV component of it is a bit of a red herring.

AFAICT, R1T is a decent e-F150 alternative if you need to tow. Buy, yeah, driving through wilderness for no particular reason is kind of idiotic.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#530

Post by steveBK123 » Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

stetrain wrote: post #521

steveBK123 wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should the car use an average .250 kWh/mi hardcoded rate on a car I have owned for 4 years when it knows my lifetime average is 0.300 kWh/mi? There's plenty of smarter things it can do by default other than "its hard, meh". They are gonna figure out how to do coast to coast self driving this year but can't project a reasonable battery range estimate given temperature/driver history/weather? Do they need more GPUs…

That might be a useful metric but it won’t always be the most accurate. If you mostly drive around town, that estimate will be way off when you get on a highway to go to Grandma’s house. There’s probably a better way to do it, but Tesla seems to be optimizing for avoiding the “why does the website say 300mi but my car shows 200mi fully charged” support question, in exchange for a different set of support questions. I…

So make it a menu option - range estimator: best/worst/spec.

It feels like one of those Muskisms where one bending of the truth requires more and more stuff down the line.

If they weren't over optimizing for the EPA test to give almost unachievable range, then they wouldn't need to have the car range meter lie as well. But if you fib once, you need to keep fibbing and keep the fib straight.