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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

gov.scot

641–650 of 745 posts

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#641
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of being misled, we were pretty much promised by the Scottish nationalists that this was a once in a generation choice. Seems we voted wrong the last time so here we are again with all the uncertainty to go with it. Though right now I want the second referendum as it's probably the best way to end the uncertainty that SNP causing

I am an outsider on the topic, but wouldn't such a stark change of the political landscape as Brexit be a really valid reason to ask the question again? After all, independence before would have meant exiting the EU, while it now could mean re-entering it. Independence is ultimately the question about how a region wants to see itself in the world, and the alliances you are in are a big factor in that qestion.

"I am an outsider on the topic, but wouldn't such a stark change of the political landscape as Brexit be a really valid reason to ask the question again?"

You could argue that, but, the nationalists never did. Instead they said the issue would be categorically resolved by the referendum for an entire generation. Perhaps if they were a bit smarter they'd have thought ahead and caveated their promises, but they wanted to create artificial pressure that they thought would help them.

Then they lost and it was immediately revealed that they were lying. It wasn't going to be a once-in-a-lifetime vote unless they won, in which case of course, they'd never let anyone vote on the topic ever again (if you believe they'd host a "let's rejoin the UK" referendum even in 50 years you don't know the SNP).

Brexit meanwhile is not actually a stark change in political landscape. It has barely affected the lives of most people. It's not at all clear why that should make a difference when there are so many other wedge issues the SNP could also use to claim now it's all different.

Really, if they wanted to ask the question again and win the best way would be to campaign for English voters to also be given the vote. Polls show a significant number of English voters would quite like to be rid of Scotland - whilst politicians really want to keep the union together, actual voters aren't so in love with it. Scotland sometimes gets perceived comes across as more trouble than it's worth: a left wing heavily subsidy dependent one-party statelet mired in corruption and with leadership that vigorously encourages anti-English racism.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#642
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big difference between people legally arriving under a points system and people rowing themselves over to live illegally.

> people rowing themselves over to live illegally. Complete misdirection. It's lawful for asylum seekers to arrive by otherwise-unlawful transport. It'd be better if they didn't have to, of course.

They aren't seeking asylum as evidenced by the number of places they could have stopped beforehand.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#643
post #489
post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain and France aren't super keen on encouraging the general idea that regions of a country can easily split off and become independent EU member countries.

But Scotland is already a country.

That is the nomenclature in the United Kingdom, but outside we don't consider Scotland England, Wales or Northern Ireland to be countries. They are part of the United Kingdom, which is "the country" for our purposes.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One huge government ruling the entire world sounds out-of-this-world-super dystopian to me!

I don't think "One huge government" was claimed. The claim was "one planet", which I think more means people should be unified more than we currently are. One could imagine lots of ways to have a unified planet without one centralized government. The EU is certainly one model you can achieve unification at large without "one huge government" as it consists of many smaller governments coming together.

"One planet" is a slogan without meaning because we're already one planet, so the reader is forced to interpret it in the most likely way it was meant - as one world government. The mention of being super left wing, and the context of the EU makes that interpretation far more likely.

"The EU is certainly one model you can achieve unification at large without one huge government as it consists of many smaller governments coming together."

That's not really what the EU is. The EU is a One Huge Government that has taken over some of the powers of the Less Huge Governments that Europe already has. It isn't a talking shop or forum for collaboration. It's a government which creates laws and enforces them. The fact that it doesn't control everything yet doesn't make it not a government, and the EU's core supporters are like ivolimmen - they want one world government and see the EU as a step towards it.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One huge government ruling the entire world sounds out-of-this-world-super dystopian to me!

World peace sounds dystopian to you?

One world government would be so ineffective, totalitarian and corrupt that it would be in a state of either constant uprising or permanent heavy handed suppression. It would definitely not be "peaceful" except in the sense that an effective police state is "peaceful" because anyone who suffers from it is crushed, before they even get to the point of being able to disrupt the peace.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#646
post #535
post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Scotland is already a country.

Ever heard of that thing called the "Basque >", for example? :-)

In England we have "the Black Country"[1][2] but it's not a country or a nation (or anything to do with race or skin colour) or even a clearly defined area, but a region of early industrial pollution and coal mining. We also have "the West Country"[3] which has its own sea borders, regional dialect, Cornish language, but isn't a nation or a country.

And we have "God's Own Country"[4] which is a phrase but does have an independence movement[5], and a region (Mercia) which hasn't been a place since 527-897CE but still has an independence movement[6].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Country

[2] https://bclm.com/

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Country

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God's_Own_Country#Yorkshire

[5] https://i-yorkshire.com/yorkshire-independence/

[6] https://independentmercia.org/declaration-of-independence/

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#647
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because nowadays vast majoritie of „refugees“ are not refugees in a classic sense. E.g. my country had thousands of „refugees“ hoping over border from Belarus last year. Last time I saw statistics, not even 1% was eligible for „refugee“ status. Even skipping the part that, according to international law, refugee is legit for the first safe country.

That last sentence is completely incorrect and is enough for me to safely disregard everything else you just said on the basis you don’t actually know what you’re talking about.

Even if some people try to challenge it and enable refugee shopping, calling it „incorrect“ shows that you don't know much about this topic.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#648
post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just sweeping a problem under a carpet approach. Real solution is alas one that eludes us today. The real issue is the blur in lines between economic migrant and refugee, with one used to bismish the other and anything to address the former being classed as an attack upon the later. Hence the whole subject is just a can or worms that just does not get dealt with. As for the UK, when the majority of the economic…

> As for the UK, when the majority of the economic and refugee's arrive via safe countries like France then it kinda adds a whole layer of debate that you just don't get with other countries migrant/refugee problems. I think a country which in the last 3 years had a melt down because they couldn't buy toilet paper; Crashed the supply chains for petrol and diesel by sheer panic; and thought it was a national crisis wh…

> I think a country which in the last 3 years had a melt down because they couldn't buy toilet paper; Crashed the supply chains for petrol and diesel by sheer panic; and thought it was a national crisis when KFC ran out of chicken should perhaps wind it's fucking neck in.

I'm reminded of a quote though darned if I can find a source, but it's something like "Don't judge a place by the idiots it keeps".

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#649
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people rowing themselves over to live illegally. Complete misdirection. It's lawful for asylum seekers to arrive by otherwise-unlawful transport. It'd be better if they didn't have to, of course.

They aren't seeking asylum as evidenced by the number of places they could have stopped beforehand.

There's no legal or moral requirement for asylum seekers to seek asylum in the nearest safe neighbouring country.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#650
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will you feel the same way when the EU seeks the end of veto powers (as is currently happening)? https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/european-parliament-a...

The veto isn't the only, or even the primary mechanism for countries to have a decisive say in EU affairs, the other and I'd argue far more important one is the opt-out. The UK had many opt-outs such as from the Euro, the Schengen Agreement, the working time directive, etc. Denmark also opted out of the Euro. It's why I felt the Brexit argument about sovereignty and being forced into things was so spurious. The worst…

"It's why I felt the Brexit argument about sovereignty and being forced into things was so spurious. The worst example of an EU rule we were 'forced into' I could find was some food labels (which BTW we still use)."

How much did you look? Or did you find examples of rules the UK was forced into and decide you agree with them.

Here's an example of why the opt-outs were never reliable, like so much else about the EU's supposed democratic mechanisms.

When the European Convention on Human Rights was written - with major input from the UK - it was meant as a general statement of principle, and is thus filled with vague and contradictory language. It was never meant to be law. Many decades later the EU decided it should be transformed into binding law on every EU member. The UK and Poland quite sensibly pointed out that this would go badly and it would be impossible to predict the consequences. So they negotiated an opt-out.

The opt-out was called Protocol 30 and is written in the plainest and clearest English the negotiators could write. It even restates the same thing twice "for the avoidance of doubt". It appeared to contain no loopholes. Nonetheless, just a few years later the ECJ passed a ruling that the opt-out was void. They simply annulled it and because EU membership means accepting ECJ supremacy, that was the end of the "opt-out". Overnight, EU human rights law took effect in the UK too: exactly the thing the government thought it had prevented.

To rub salt in the wound, the case before the court was to do with sending an "asylum seeker" back to Greece under the Dublin Convention. This was a now dead part of EU law that stated the country that decides to allow an asylum seeker into the EU must process them. The ECJ decided that actually it didn't like this rule, because it was "unfair", and so annulled that too along the way, with the justification that Greece was such a hellhole it would infringe his human rights to send the asylum seeker back. Again, nobody reasonable saw that coming and the rules as written just evaporated the moment they came into conflict with EU ideology.

The history of the EU is full of stories like this. When you learn enough about it, you eventually realize that the treaties and rules are meaningless. It doesn't matter how clearly everyone seems to understand an agreement, tomorrow they might have come up with some Kafka-esque justification for why it didn't actually mean what everyone said it meant. These changes always seem to be to the benefit of the EU institutions themselves, not the people.

Such a system of government can never be accountable or trustworthy. Law has to be interpreted as written, not simply discarded the moment it becomes inconvenient. As such the Brexit supporters were right to claim the opt-outs were meaningless. Especially given the pro-EU sentiment of much of the establishment.

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