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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

gov.scot

431–440 of 745 posts

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#431
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it’s illegal in your opinion but not in actual fact?

It’s normal for the high court to side with the government in these cases only for them to be overturned on appeal. That’s not my opinion, that’s the experience of immigration lawyers. So yes, the policy is unlawful _in fact_ but the legal process needs to catch up to that.

Except the Supreme Court have said they will not consider an appeal.

So it is not illegal.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Dutch and EU citizen I fully understand their motivation. I also regretted to see England leave the EU.

Will you feel the same way when the EU seeks the end of veto powers (as is currently happening)? https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/european-parliament-a...

The veto isn't the only, or even the primary mechanism for countries to have a decisive say in EU affairs, the other and I'd argue far more important one is the opt-out. The UK had many opt-outs such as from the Euro, the Schengen Agreement, the working time directive, etc. Denmark also opted out of the Euro.

It's why I felt the Brexit argument about sovereignty and being forced into things was so spurious. The worst example of an EU rule we were 'forced into' I could find was some food labels (which BTW we still use). As long as a country is smart about what it does or doesn't opt into, there's plenty of scope to chart your own course within the wider EU program.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#433
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Scotland doesn't qualify to join the EU upon independence I'd have to say it's not. What else would be big enough?

Scotland doesn't qualify to join the EU upon independence What would be the problem, assuming the independence gets recognized by London? The border situation? The deficit? Or is there some more fundamental problem I'm unaware of?

You've mentioned two important factors but the harder standards to be met are economic. This[1] covers it quite thoroughly, is written by someone I would expect is in favour of joining the EU (though I'm not sure) but I think they've done a fair job, and some (some) of the comments too.

Once those are met then thorny issues like a hundred mile long border can be looked at. I don't think it's impossible, but, as is covered in the first link (and many other places, did you look?) Scotland cannot swan in to the EU in less than 2 years even at the very best. And without the Euro?[2]

[1] https://sceptical.scot/2020/03/can-scotland-meet-eu-economic...

[2] https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-independen...

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#434
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it not be appealing for the English financial sector to move to Scotland if it’s part of the EU?

Scotland likely won't be part of the EU on an exit from the UK. If a country wanted to move to the EU, why move to a country that's just undergone an economic shock, and with new political divisions forming as competing visions of the future and huge uncertainty, rather than move to Ireland which is relatively stable politically and also has English as the working language, and a much larger existing financial sector…

"Scotland won't be part of the EU"

Oh yes, and voting for Remain is the only way to stay in the EU.

I think that argument has long since sailed. The EU will undoubtedly fasttrack Scotland straight back into the EU and single market before independence arrives.

As a major English-speaking country in the EU, with ports at the periphery of Europe, strong exports, and a finance capital, Scotland will be in a great position. Brexit has given them a huge opportunity. They should capitalise on England's foolishness.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#435
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about travel, it's about economic activity. HS2 will funnel economic activity from poorer regions into London. Great for London.

HS2 should reduce the journey time by train between Glasgow and Edinburgh to London by 49 and 31 minutes, respectively. That's decent, almost as much as the saving for Manchester (50m). Edinburgh and Glasgow to London are the most common domestic flights in Britain. (Belfast does have more.)

Which is great for London's economic growth, but not so great for scotland's.

The intense focus on London above any other region is a key driving force of indy

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#436
Makes sense to me, an Appalachian.

They're not an enclaved nation didn't want to Brexit because they're not royalists[0]. Based on my informal conversations, my sense was they wanted to have the ability to travel and work throughout the EU, and that they declined independence (narrowly) because even if they're overwhelmingly... let's phrase it "not exactly a bunch of royalists".

They may very well actually do it, a second time, then negotiate in partnership with France to possibly allow the UK to retrieve their nukes, given how poorly folks honored the Budapest Agreement[1] and the Good Friday Agreement[2]

The end result of Brexit, as I told many folks back in DC, is looking increasing like the "United" Kingdom will have to renamed "Wangland"[3].

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/may/15/scottish-sup...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement#Equality...

[3] Wales + England, get it? ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Wales

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#437
post #140
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland can be independent _and_ be in the same economic market (ignoring UK and Spain willing to veto Scotland reentering EU out of spite / own political motives).

How would the UK veto an independent Scotland reentering the EU? They no longer have a vote to do so.

Not any more, but they could’ve after the previous independence referendum if it had gone that way.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I voted against it as I didn't want to lose my EU membership; which we were told would happen. A few years later, an unrepresentative (to scotland) tory government takes it from us anyway because they were frightened of nigel farage and some middle englanders don't like hearing polish in their local tescos. A lot of my friends who were remain for various reasons seem to be leaning towards independence. 'We were told…

> A few years later, an unrepresentative (to scotland) tory government takes it from us anyway because they were frightened of nigel farage and some middle englanders don't like hearing polish in their local tescos. You want a referendum because other people you disagree with were given a referendum that you then lost? And you paint this as "tory government takes it from us"? I also note that millions voted, it'd be…

Reasons for wanting a referendum are none of your business. It suffices to say they want one.

If it fails, then not enough wanted to leave. That is all.

When they failed to do Brexit for years running, and it turned out the arguments for were lies, there should have been another Brexit vote. It would have failed, and a great deal of trouble would be saved.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#439
post #389
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brexit passed with 51.89% of the vote, so apparently.

Well that seems quite silly. You'd think you'd want a majority for a big, hard to reverse decision like that, otherwise it will oscillate back and forth.

Well not really. You do want to bias for dissolving a union.

If half the population is against it, it doesn’t matter if it’s 51% or 49%, it’s unpopular enough that it is tearing your nation in two.

Imagine the US civil war came down to a vote: “Sorry, 50.1% are in favor of slavery so we’re just going to keep practicing it in all of America”. Would the 49.9% be happy to live within that union? How about vice versa? The division is too deep.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> large cuts to public sector spending that would almost certainly be required Why do you think that? We already raise more in taxes than we spend, and right now Scotland is heavily subsidising England.

Scotland's implied deficit in 2020-21 was £36.3bn, or 22.4% of GDP. [1] When the SNP set up the Sustainable Growth Commission before the last independence vote it advised that public sector cuts would be necessary to reduce the country's deficit to sustainable levels. [2] You can't just make things up because you wish it was so. It is not sensible. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/18/scotland-soa... […

> Scotland's implied deficit in 2020-21 was £36.3bn, or 22.4% of GDP. [1]

How has the price of oil changed since then? Cherry picking much?

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