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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

gov.scot

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#151

Post by AshamedCaptain »

brigandish wrote: post #65
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that, as they say, is why we vote the Prime Minister and parliament for life, instead of having repeated elections every 5 years.

If you think having referenda is comparable, then let's have them every 5 years too, on both Scottish independence or rejoining the the Union, and on Brexit or rejoining the EU. It's just the same.

Multiple european countries have referendums multiple times per year, on topics whose effects are much harder to undo (like education plans).

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#153

Post by iso1631 »

carnitine wrote: post #24
cstross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

I’d say post-Brexit England has drifted away from the far right. The whole EDL/Britain First/UKIP sentiment has only waned massively since then. The ruling government has not come close to far right at any point.

Not what my ex-tory MP who left the party feels.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#154

Post by WJW »

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #129
WJW wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP but also Dutch. Yes I would definitely like the EU to abolish veto powers and move to a majority rule. Europeans are too divided and need to band together to form a realistic opposition to the US and China. Veto rule is no way to govern a large group, since you only have to bribe a single member to cripple the whole. This has been known since at least the ancient Greek citystate era.

Why does the EU need to form a realistic opposition to the U.S.?

Because we don't like a foreign power influencing our policy to their own benefit and our detriment?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#155

Post by osullivj »

cstross wrote: post #17
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

Northern Ireland is not a nation. Ireland is a nation with four provinces: Ulster, Leinster, Munster and Connaught. Six of Ulster's nine counties are part of the UK, and the other three are part of the Repulblic of Ireland.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#156

Post by scott_w »

dankboys wrote: post #104
cstross wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my point. UKIP and BXP disintegrated because their more competent members colonized the Conservative Party, which is now much more radical and far-right than it was under Cameron. The only surviving cabinet minister from Cameron's era (2010-2016) is Michael Gove. The rest are all new faces with far right credentials and a commitment to the hardest of hard Brexits.

Nothing says "British far right" like a Cabinet full of ethnic minorities.

Our Home Secretary has just instituted an illegal policy of deporting African and Asian refugees to Rwanda.

Irrespective of the colour of her skin, her actions are those of the far right.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#157

Post by Gordonjcp »

physicsguy wrote: post #46

With hard headed view, I struggle to see that an independent Scotland will be economically able to deal with large cuts to public sector spending that would almost certainly be required. Per capita spending is already higher in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. Scottish companies have debts denominated in pounds. There would almost certainly be capital flight to rUK. Large businesses may relocate. There is no plan…

> large cuts to public sector spending that would almost certainly be required

Why do you think that? We already raise more in taxes than we spend, and right now Scotland is heavily subsidising England.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#158

Post by maweki »

brigandish wrote: post #120
maweki wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is holding the pro-independence people to "once in a generation" okay but not holding the contra-independence people to "this is the only way to stay in the EU"? The issue was a vote on staying in the EU as much as staying in the UK. Now these circumstances changed. Also, the promises of further devolution weren't kept either. Again, why are you so hung up on the (let's say) lie of "once in a generation" but not…

> The issue was a vote on staying in the EU as much as staying in the UK I don't even remember it coming up but if it means a lot to you then I can see you'd be aggravated, but how would it obviate the once in a generation pledge? Scotland can't join the EU if it goes independent anyway, the vote to remain really was the only practical way to stay in the EU.

> Scotland can't join the EU if it goes independent anyway

Why though? It's not like the UK could dangle a veto over their heads now. Spain already pledged not to veto.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#159

Post by tasuki »

chillydawg wrote: post #42

One quite important issue is the border. English and Scottish people will almost certainly never tolerate any kind of friction at that border. We've been moving across it seamlessly for centuries, families are mixed, businesses straddle the border, etc. If the Northern Ireland debacle has shown us anything, it's if Scotland were to leave and then join the EU that border would become an absolute political nightmare. T…

> The EU has an absolutist position on border integrity

What does that mean?

There's Schengen, but there are also EU countries which aren't in Schengen...

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#160

Post by brigandish »

adrianN wrote: post #97
brigandish wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often do you think independence referenda should be held?

About as often as a significant part of the population wants to hold them.

52%? 66%? Under 50%?

What is significant here?

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