De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer • Hacker News Board

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#641

Post by TuringNYC » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 1:09 PM UTC

kuzimoto wrote: post #354

komali2 wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preventing others from interfering should count, no? So our most recent case is 1 murderer and 3 accessories to, at the very least.

> Preventing others from interfering should count, no? Sure, but that's not what you asked. I believe the other three will be charged and convicted. At least that what I hope will happen.

>> I believe the other three will be charged and convicted. At least that what I hope will happen.

Sadly, "belief and hope" hasn't worked for entire swaths of the population. If "belief and hope" worked, we could just "hope" there wont be riots and everything would be merry.

In reality, every two months something horrible happens happens and gets on the news. It probably happens much more than that and isn't on the news. And if it wasn't on video -- it is like it didn't happen.

It is rare to have video. It is even more rare for a charge. Even more for a conviction. I dont think looting is the answer here, but i seriously question the judgement of people who actually think there is no problem of police violence.

Even if you think that police violence is rare, there is the added problem of no consequence. I grew up with case after case, the most memoriable wones were https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Amadou_Diallo and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King#Beating

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#642

Post by yazan94 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 1:12 PM UTC

californical wrote: post #500

joshuamorton wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also the police are willing to escalate violently with one group but not the other.

I wonder if it's related to the fact that the protestors a few weeks ago were carrying lots of guns openly. I genuinely wonder what would happen if a majority the people protesting today were all carrying AR-15's

Honestly, it is funny to me that the group most dedicated to standing up and fighting against a tyrannical government and refuses to believe that the military would be called in against peaceful protesters is still standing on the sidelines and watching the violence unfold. The day they realize that they and the BLM movement are mostly on the same side for this issue (anti government heavy-handedness) will be the day that these protests start getting seriously scary.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#643

Post by TeaDrunk » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 1:12 PM UTC

lazyjones wrote: post #621

TeaDrunk wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand it’s actually untrue- the media are just more likely to film and show destruction rather than peaceful protests. In Minneapolis there were both massive peaceful protests and looting, but the property damage was covered more than the protesting. Given that the argument for looting is that people care more about property damage than about the protection of black lives against police oppression, t…

It's well documented. For example, in this interview with a police officer: https://www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/article107870345/Wir-werde... > "Ich weiß, dass wir bei brisanten Großdemos verdeckt agierende Beamte, die als taktische Provokateure, als vermummte Steinewerfer fungieren, unter die Demonstranten schleusen. Sie werfen auf Befehl Steine oder Flaschen in Richtung der Polizei, damit die dann mit der Räumung beg…

I don't doubt there are provocateurs, but I doubt this constitutes the majority of the protesting.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#644

Post by twic » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 1:18 PM UTC

chris123 wrote: post #559

beloch wrote: post #78

We should expect police to us less use violence and improve their crowd management and deescalation skills. The increasing militarization of police is a trend that must be reversed. However, we should not neglect the other side of the equation either. This article is, in large part, about just that. The article points out that many protests in the U.S. went smoothly through the practice of police and protest organize…

The mass media could use some de-escalation skills, too. Of course, their specialty is escalation, not de-escalation.

We go now live to Chris Morris in 1994:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IEwBrJzhlg

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#645

Post by dashundchen » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 1:21 PM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #618

eirini1 wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is fascinating to me how left wing protests seem to frequently degrade into violence. Recent case in point was the reopen protesters. I don’t think a single shot was fired by the crowd, nor were any buildings burned or looted. thats very interesting. The difference seems to be in initial reactions of the police to peaceful protests. With lockdown protesters, police showed up in soft clothes and didn't initiate vi…

> much more incisive and dangerous to the government. Why the "government"? I don't think the police automatically defend the interests of the currently-elected politicians. In the absence of distinguishing evidence, I assign much higher priors to them defending their own interests.

In many areas, rural and urban, with corruption and machine politics, police, sherrifs, and their unions are one of the blocs mayors and councilmembers avoid being on the opposite side of.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#646

Post by twic » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 1:22 PM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #247

beloch wrote: post #78

We should expect police to us less use violence and improve their crowd management and deescalation skills. The increasing militarization of police is a trend that must be reversed. However, we should not neglect the other side of the equation either. This article is, in large part, about just that. The article points out that many protests in the U.S. went smoothly through the practice of police and protest organize…

There now appear to be police that want violence now too. In my city they’re ignoring looters and tear gassing the protestors. There is no public safety rationale for that.

I'm not sure if readers of HN are familiar with the concept of a "police riot", but that is clearly what is happening in many places now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_riot

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#647

Post by empath75 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 1:22 PM UTC

solstice wrote: post #570

lxmorj wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is flabbergasting to me that we expect self-policing from protestors, but not the literal fucking police.

I think it's normal, reasonable and beneficial. If I had a very strong grievance that lead me to protest, I'd be highly motivated to not let others detract from my message or tarnish it. Nut jobs and provocateurs make it harder for me to attain my goals and can in the worst delegitimise my cause entirely

You'd think police should be highly motivated to stop their coworkers from murdering people and getting away with it, but here we are.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#648

Post by twic » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 1:23 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #154

komali2 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that any responsibility should fall to the protesters. The right to protest is baked into the first legal document the country as a political entity wrote. For the last 250 years politicians and cops have had the knowledge that Americans care a great deal about their right to stand in front of a statehouse and shout to their heart's content. They should create their own policies to deal with that fact. If…

Now that being said, black lives matter in particular suffers from (in my opinion) a lack of leadership and organization. A universal problem with "leaderless movements" is that they quickly devolve to the lowest common denominator level. Anyone can put out their slate and call themselves an "activist" and it's inevitable that some dim person will come along and try to make a name for themselves by taking things fart…

> A universal problem with "leaderless movements" is that they quickly devolve to the lowest common denominator level.

The police have loads of leaders, and they've devolved pretty fast too. I'm not sure if leadership is really a decisive factor.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#649

Post by learnstats2 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 1:25 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #362

idealboy wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I and about 90% of the crowd wore masks. Yes, we did our best to keep 6 feet but not always, hence the masks. People were walking around with hand sanitizer to share. A global pandemic is awful, but it does not alleviate us of our civic responsibility. Was it uncomfortable and difficult? Yes. Am I glad I went? Hell yes. Black lives matter.

> but it does not alleviate us of our civic responsibility. The protests haven’t worked though for the last 20 years or so. IMO it’s more important to vote and promote change than to block traffic. People remember how you made them feel more easily than what you actually said. Preventing them from getting somewhere is a great way to just piss people off.

Voting and "promoting" change hasn't worked either.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#650

Post by badwolf » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 1:26 PM UTC

0xBA5ED wrote: post #522

TulliusCicero wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That it happened in the first place? That black people are treated worse by police as the norm?

But "the police" didn't kill this specific person. A specific police officer did and he's in jail.

Where were/are the rest of "the police" to denounce, arrest and charge, and update policies and practices to prevent this from happening... every. damn. day.

What do we have instead? 3 other "the police" standing by watching and not doing a thing. Being accessories to murder, that they would gladly arrest anyone else for doing the same. Followed by days of police brutality towards peaceful protesters, "the police" showing their itch to start shooting, throwing 'white power' signs and grinning, etc...

Come on.