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De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

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Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#271

Post by kuzimoto »

sagarm wrote: post #224
kuzimoto wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them. When you commit a crime and violate someone's freemdoms (the primary being right to life, liberty, property), you forfeit your own. When you kill someone and take their life, you steal or destroy property, you are now in debt to society. By living in a society you agre…

Police brutality is a systemic issue. Peaceful protest over the years haven't changed the system. Charging that one officer doesn't solve it either. The Police reaction to these protests clearly shows systemic reform is needed. Peaceful protesters and reporters have been tear gassed, shot, and arrested. They don't deserve to be tret like that just because others decided to vandalize and loot.

> Police brutality is a systemic issue.

That's a pretty bold claim. Do you have any statistics to show police are by and large using disproportionate force?

> Peaceful protest over the years haven't changed the system. Charging that one officer doesn't solve it either.

There are bad people in society. That doesn't mean the whole system is bad. Of course there is room for improvement, and action should be taken to remove those who are not fit to serve.

> The Police reaction to these protests clearly shows systemic reform is needed. Peaceful protesters and reporters have been tear gassed, shot, and arrested. They don't deserve to be tret like that just because others decided to vandalize and loot.

I agree that peaceful protesters don't deserve that. But let's get this clear, it was violent rioting that was occurring. In that situation, how are you to quickly separate the two groups?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#272

Post by smileysteve »

scarmig wrote: post #187
lsh123 wrote: post #121

Could we please stop calling “protesters” all the people looting jewelry stores, Target, Nike, etc? These are not protesters, these are looters. Police should use any means at their disposal to protect lives and property from looters and rioters.

By the same token, can we please stop calling "police" all the people bashing in heads, punching journalists, planting evidence, instigating violence? They are not police, they are violent thugs. Protesters should use any means at their disposal to protect their own lives from violent thugs.

This

The police have taken an oath, have systemic training, and are funded and protected. They should be held to, at minimum, their systemic failures, but probably their oaths and training (which includes constitutional law and appropriate force)

On the other hand, the only thing that protestors have guaranteed to be in common is that they've shown up in a place.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#273

Post by vkou »

kuzimoto wrote: post #206
komali2 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you feel that way if they came and burned your house or business down? Yup, and I have the receipts to prove it: my motorcycle was vandalized in Oakland during the protests. A small price to pay for unsung voices being heard. You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them.

> You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them. When you commit a crime and violate someone's freemdoms (the primary being right to life, liberty, property), you forfeit your own. When you kill someone and take their life, you steal or destroy property, you are now in debt to society. By living in a society you agre…

> He was arrested, and charged. He will pay for what he did.

He was only arrested and charged because of the protests.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#275

Post by idealboy »

briandear wrote: post #258
idealboy wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insightful reply. I marched yesterday and police fired rubber bullets into a peaceful crowd because we were blocking a non-essential intersection. On a Sunday. We refused to leave and fortunately they left and let us have a peaceful march. There doesn’t seem to be an interest in separating out the extreme minority that protest violently. There had been zero violence or destruction that day. A very well-behaved crowd…

Was everyone wearing masks and practicing social distancing of at least 6 feet? Weren’t we told that the reopen protesters were putting people at risk by protesting from their cars? I don’t disagree with the reason for protest, but if a church can’t be open, even outdoors, and an extended family picnic is illegal in a public park, then I am not sure the rationale for allowing protests now. The first amendment isn’t c…

Yes, I and about 90% of the crowd wore masks. Yes, we did our best to keep 6 feet but not always, hence the masks. People were walking around with hand sanitizer to share.

A global pandemic is awful, but it does not alleviate us of our civic responsibility.

Was it uncomfortable and difficult? Yes. Am I glad I went? Hell yes. Black lives matter.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#276

Post by lsh123 »

drocer88 wrote: post #221
calvinmorrison wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That stat becomes more useful when you take into account black Americans are roughly 15% of the population.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/18/upshot/police-killings-of...

Thank you, this was the article I was trying to find but my google search skills failed me.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#277

Post by thatswrong0 »

drusepth wrote: post #111
just_steve_h wrote: post #10

Folks - don't be obtuse. Police commanders know exactly what will happen when they escalate with tear gas and rubber bullets. Pro-police forces WANT mayhem. It makes people watching on TV afraid of the protests, and it changes the subject away from the widespread peaceful opposition to racist police violence.

I am pro-police and I do NOT want mayhem. The ideal protest in my eyes is a peaceful, effective one. One that causes real change -- like increased oversight, accountability, altered training, etc -- in the general police population: one that fixes the very real problems we've seen with police for years and continuously improves law enforcement for years to come. Claiming "pro-police forces WANT mayhem" paints the sit…

And yet there are dozens of filmed examples in the past couple days of police using unprovoked violence against peaceful protestors and other innocent civilians. There are quite obviously a lot of police officers who do in fact want and enjoy when they can legally employ violence against people.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#278

Post by thephyber »

8note wrote: post #102
nostromo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minneapolis Chief of Police: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medaria_Arradondo Seattle Chief of Police: http://www.seattle.gov/police/about-us/about-the-department/... St Louis Chief of Police: http://www.slmpd.org/chief_of_police.shtml Atlanta Chief of Police: https://www.projectq.us/atlanta/atlanta_police_chief_erika_s... Chicago Chief of Police: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brown_(police_officer) Oakland Chie…

Sure thats the Seattle police chief, but who leads the police union? This guy: https://youtu.be/b6cJQ1XBH8M who fits the cartoon villain side of things

I thought this exact point when I saw the parent.

There are two public faces to every department anytime an officer-involved story hits the news.

The police chief is a slick salesperson to put the department in the best light and is accountable to the mayor / city council. The union leader is the slimy salesperson who always paints the suspect/chief/mayor in the worst possible light and who constantly repeats the refrain "the job is hard", "we are only human", "followed standard department procedure", etc. There are a number of notable union leaders who are detestable caricatures of cartoon villains.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#279

Post by renewiltord »

ineedasername wrote: post #190
renewiltord wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's what people said for twenty years. So people wrote letters and went to court and the media. Turns out that didn't work. Actually, have you seen Daniel Shaver's killing? No riot. Outcome: that policeman collects a pension and rests easy at home. So it is established your technique doesn't work. When the good things don't work, eventually you get the bad things. That's not even through people changing. It's…

Regardless of the effectiveness of peaceful protests over the past 20 years, violent ones are even less likely to see change. Those already on the fence or against the issue will just use it as an opportunity to dismiss it all as thugs interested in chaos, no matter that the majority are peaceful.

Peaceful Protest: Nothing

Violent Protest: Guy got arrested

It's already achieved more, so I think we're good here. But the truth is that this is out of control of individuals. The system of groups of people responds to the stimulus in predictable ways. This was unavoidable.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#280

Post by JohnBooty »

thelock85 wrote: post #265
briandear wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it very odd that the police still cannot after all these years and with all development in surveillance tech distinguish between peaceful demonstrators and rioters. One could almost believe that they have no interest in making that distinction. I have been in the middle of protests when I worked for Reuters and the difference between peaceful and violent is very tiny. I was in the no-man’s land between the K…

> ...as soon as looting, fires, and violence starts, then a large portion of the population now starts discussing and being angry about that rather than the core issue. If true, then it’s sad that loss of property is such an effective distraction to facing down centuries of systemic oppression. On a more conspiratorial note, this seems like a good counter strategy for the people who ostensibly would rather the masses…

    On a more conspiratorial note, this seems like a good
    counter strategy for the people who ostensibly would
    rather the masses focus on property damage than laws,
    statutes and police training.
Yes. This is an age-old and (unfortunately) extremely effective technique. "Agent provocateur" is the term here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

There's a lot of direct and circumstantial evidence pointing toward exactly that sort of thing happening during this current time of unrest.

There are plenty of incidents during the current protests that, and I'm going phrase this very mildly for HN's sake, certainly invite... uh... speculation as far as whether or not there are agents provocateur at play.

Moving away from speculation and into the realm of hard facts, this sort of escalation is an explicitly stated goal of some movements. Example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boogaloo_movement

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