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De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

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Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#621

Post by lazyjones »

TeaDrunk wrote: post #579
lazyjones wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In all cases the police didn't care and charged peaceful and violent demonstrators alike. FWIW, German police regularly used undercover, black-clad, violent agents as a pretext for breaking up peaceful protests. It's probably an established tactic. But the situation in the USA looks very different (from here), violent protesters appear to be a small minority of the problematic people, most of which are just crimina…

From what I understand it’s actually untrue- the media are just more likely to film and show destruction rather than peaceful protests. In Minneapolis there were both massive peaceful protests and looting, but the property damage was covered more than the protesting. Given that the argument for looting is that people care more about property damage than about the protection of black lives against police oppression, t…

It's well documented. For example, in this interview with a police officer: https://www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/article107870345/Wir-werde...

> "Ich weiß, dass wir bei brisanten Großdemos verdeckt agierende Beamte, die als taktische Provokateure, als vermummte Steinewerfer fungieren, unter die Demonstranten schleusen. Sie werfen auf Befehl Steine oder Flaschen in Richtung der Polizei, damit die dann mit der Räumung beginnen kann.

Translation: "I know that we insert undercover agents as tactical provocateurs, as hooded(disguised) stone throwers, among the protesters during large controversial protests. They throw stones or bottles at our command towards the police so it can begin the evacuation".

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#622

Post by roelschroeven »

g8tor wrote: post #578
paulannesley wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> instead of CS gas it would be great if there was some sort of sedative gas to just slow people down enough to sap their will to continue That is the most casually delivered fucked up dystopian line I've seen on HN.

heh :). why thank you I still think it's a great idea

It would be a greater idea still if the people could use said gas against violent police officers, thus preventing all the misery in the first place.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#623

Post by TulliusCicero »

lsh123 wrote: post #299
scarmig wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the same token, can we please stop calling "police" all the people bashing in heads, punching journalists, planting evidence, instigating violence? They are not police, they are violent thugs. Protesters should use any means at their disposal to protect their own lives from violent thugs.

Absolutely, that’s exactly why 2nd amendment is important.

Imagine one of the bystanders when George Floyd was killed had responded like this. The police are killing him, so a bystander -- or maybe even more than one -- pulls out a gun and starts shooting at them in George's defense. Imagine the kind of conversation we'd be having now.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#624

Post by ooobit2 »

colechristensen wrote: post #575
ooobit2 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an idea, for whatever it's worth: Address the incentive to riot instead of attempting to assign full control and liability to one element over another. For all the obvious, on-the-nose proof that reactive states differ from proactive states, I find it very odd that people are still folding their arms and brandishing smug expressions for their equivalently useless ideas as soon as someone else's idea yields a c…

Critical thinking is complicated and the subjects don't fit well in poster boards or chants, the results of critical thinking don't fit in with worldview discrimination "Does this idea fit in with my alignment or not"

I just demonstrated critical thinking. It took me longer to type the cat example out than it did to think of it. So, if that was difficult and required too much effort, am I to expect that less effort is being put into addressing racism and climate change?

How can so many people be a whole league behind me and the 20+ cigarettes I smoke every day, though I know they're going to kill me? I shouldn't look like I'm making great life choices here.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#625

Post by TuringNYC »

jeffdavis wrote: post #480
pmiller2 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got it backwards. Voting and promoting change is what has not worked. Economic damage is likely to be the only thing that's going to persuade the elites to throw the working class a bone. You're witnessing the anger of the masses in its most pure form here.

Where is the MLK of 2020? I want to see someone who can go beyond their anger and have a plan and lead .

There are many of them. They dont get media coverage. They "miss the cutoff" for debates. The party doesnt give them a chance. Even so called "liberal media" do hit jobs on them.

Then, people who are complacent complain no one is trying.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#626

Post by jellicle »

meerita wrote: post #593
carb wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. If police departments properly charged their employees when they break the law, there would not have been protests, rioting, or looting. Trevor Noah's attempt at explaining this is very straightforward but adroit.

Buy, wait, the guilty cop is free? no charges?

Yes, three of the four guilty cops are free with no charges, and the fourth is only being charged due to the protests and would not have been otherwise.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#627

Post by gerbilly »

One suggestion that has been made is to not call the cops at all for certain kinds of emergencies:

* Mental health (otherwise nonviolent)

* Animal problems

This alone could reduce deaths dramatically. I witnessed an incident where the cops were called about a stray dog. They shot it. When you have a gun, every problem looks like a target.

I think it should also be made clear who has priority at a 'scene' firefighters, paramedics, or police?

Personally I think it's implicitly assumed that it is police that have that authority. I believe this should be flipped so that medical and fire officials have authority at the scene of an incident, not police.

In the case of George Floyd, then the paramedics would have had the authority to get those three cops off the guys back possibly in time to save him.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#628

Post by scarmig »

nights192 wrote: post #563
scarmig wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the same token, can we please stop calling "police" all the people bashing in heads, punching journalists, planting evidence, instigating violence? They are not police, they are violent thugs. Protesters should use any means at their disposal to protect their own lives from violent thugs.

But they literally are police--that's the difference between these two arguments. Police can be held to account through voting and policy shifts, individuals cannot without community enforcement.

Murdering people in cold blood is part of policing?

Here's the part you're missing: the protests are holding the police to account, and they're the only way available for the community to enforce basic rule of law on the police. If not for the protests, the officer(s) in question would be getting some paid time off to fund a vacation to the beach. Literally. And that's despite the community already having voted for stricter regulations by clear majorities and not getting them because white votes are counted more in our political system than black ones, and that's despite voter suppression disproportionately restricting black voters' access to the polls.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#629

Post by kuzimoto »

joshuamorton wrote: post #471
kuzimoto wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> from what I've seen the violence from police against protesters far outstrips that of protesters against random people or cops. How? As far as I can tell no one was killed at the hands of the police (after protests started). Just in Chicago at least 17 people were killed during the protests.

> Just in Chicago at least 17 people were killed during the protests. And how many by the protestors? > As far as I can tell no one was killed at the hands of the police (after protests started) https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867281529/louisville-police-c... Note that shooting someone isn't the only form of violence possible. Escalating by firing rubber bullets or tear gassing or driving your car into peaceful protes…

>> Just in Chicago at least 17 people were killed during the protests.

> And how many by the protestors?

We don't know if they were all "protestors" but at least not the police: https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/16-dead-at-least-30-pe...

From your article: "the police and National Guard were shot at first and that the shots that killed McAtee were fired in response", and that they weren't part of the protests.

It seems rioters exhibited a disproportionate amount of violence compared to police though.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#630

Post by myopenid »

beloch wrote: post #78

We should expect police to us less use violence and improve their crowd management and deescalation skills. The increasing militarization of police is a trend that must be reversed. However, we should not neglect the other side of the equation either. This article is, in large part, about just that. The article points out that many protests in the U.S. went smoothly through the practice of police and protest organize…

You guys are slowly turning into self-ware wolves. It's funny.
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