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Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#631

Post by gphilip »

tomp wrote: post #608
gphilip wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine that black person says: "I am proud to be black!". >Now imagine that the white person says "I am proud to be white". >Now throw away you knee-jercky reaction and think about it. I thought about it, and here's what I found: The different reactions which those two assertions may elicit depend crucially on different shades of meaning of the word "proud" which come into play, depending on the colour of the perso…

But that's exactly what the parent was saying - if you perceive the meaning of the words slightly differently based on the skin color of the speaker, it's textbook racism. Some people might call it positive racism/discrimination, but it's still racism.

> if you perceive the meaning of the words slightly differently based on the skin color of the speaker, it's textbook racism.

What textbook would that be? My dictionary defines racism as:

1. the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

2. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

This does not suggest to me that it is racist to acknowledge that a shared history (of oppression, in this case) may have an influence on the language of a people.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#632

Post by muglug »

tomp wrote: post #613
muglug wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the point she's making that she didn't fit the culture primarily because of her gender? And that any work culture where one's gender matters is a toxic culture in itself? A workplace just filled with happy young male developers is not necessarily a healthy environment, or one that necessarily has a good culture.

> Isn't the point she's making that she didn't fit the culture primarily because of her gender? It is, but the point a lot of people are making here is that maybe she sees the situation in a wrong way, as her perspective is a reflection of her gender, so she cannot really judge if the problems happened primarily because of her gender. Actually, the fact that the other female employees felt secure and relaxed enough t…

> Actually, the fact that the other female employees felt secure and relaxed enough that they were hola-hooping in the office suggests otherwise.

No it doesn't, really. There can still be a problem, even if it's easier to ignore it than to cause a fuss and risk your career.

> It's also not necessarily an unhealthy/toxic environment

Absolutely agree - but if, when you add a female developer, there is hostility towards her that appears to be motivated in part by her gender, then one should revise one's opinion of the "healthiness" of that environment.

Obviously this is one person's account and, absent a response from GitHub, it will stay that way. Nevertheless, I'm sorry that she felt victimised, and I think her account is a useful vantage point from which to discuss issues of "cultural fit" in all-male teams.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#633

Post by efuquen »

jd0 wrote: post #297
hueving wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>allowing a female employee's problems at work to be continually ignored. Who is to say that it was only a female employee's problems? It sounds like the wife is a nut case and she could very well have bothered other employees. There is no evidence here that her requests were being ignored because she is a female. >The hula hooping moment was important because it visibly demonstrated her male coworkers lack of respec…

You're taking what I said a little too literally. Take a look at my response to another commenter where I clarify my hula-hoop statement: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7408735

You're avoiding what I think is the better point, the first one. Her mistreatment by an estranged wife of a founder, in and of itself, doesn't constitute sexism. If her problems with this were ignored because she was a female, that would be sexism. But I didn't see any evidence of that presented and to me it seems more likely they were ignored quite simply because it was the wife of an important person at the company and HR was ineffective at resolving the situation.

Overall the article focuses very little on sexism and more on this really bizarre and inappropriate relationship with the Founder's wife. The section about someone reverting her commits because of being rejection might be a better example, but I don't really even see that as being gender specific either. If a women was rejected by a male coworker and she started reverting commits is that sexism? Jealousy isn't really gender specific and targeted at someone because they are a man or a women. Finally there were some vague mentions of pull request comments that might be sexist, but it's hard to judge without being able to see the comments and she really didn't expand into what about them were sexist.

Overall what I see is a very strange story about incompetence and inappropriate behavior, but very little talk about sexism except in a few random places and at the very end with the hula hoop story. I feel like there is a lot more to this story that has really been told.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#634

Post by voidlogic »

jsmthrowaway wrote: post #132
theorique wrote: post #98

The bad actor in this version of the story seems to be the founder's wife. And the founder certainly dropped the ball by not keeping his wife in line. For whatever reason, the wife acted crazy, intimidating, and creepy toward Horvath. Why? Who knows? Maybe because of jealousy or concern that her husband was interested in this (admittedly reasonably attractive) female employee? The founder needed to do the professiona…

> keeping his wife in line. I have never cringed so hard in my life.

Yes, husbands need to keep their wives in line gasp AND wives need to keep their husbands in line.

If you form a life partnership with someone being able to steer them around icebergs is 1. Good for them, 2. Good for you and optionally 3. Good for your offspring (and mutual assets). If you can't trust your partner to do this for you, and you for them, its not a good partershaft.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#635

Post by mattdeboard »

heynk wrote: post #610
discardorama wrote: post #595

I'm curious about the "hula hoop" issue that Julie is referring to. As a male nerd, I will admit that my social skills are a bit lacking. However: I don't see the problem with staring at women who are putting on a show which is clearly unrelated to their work. If 2 women started making out in the break room, I'm ashamed to say that I might just linger longer than usual.

It helps to focus on empathy in these situations. You may view their activities or two lesbians as making a 'show', but perhaps to them it is a personal matter which they would prefer to enjoy to themselves. Sometimes hula hooping is just embarrassing and it's usually awkward to have a bunch of members of the opposite sex staring at you while you do anything. I don't blame you at all for having those natural reaction…

> You may view their activities or two lesbians as making a 'show'

Well, he did set up this weird hypothetical as taking place in the break room

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#636

Post by gruntmaster9000 »

retrogradeorbit wrote: post #196
sudhirj wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why? Despite it's dubious origins, Github remains an excellent / superior product. One may not agree with the way they do things (and even that seems to be some, not everyone in the organization), but is that really a reason to stop using the product? https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic

What makes it superior to something like bitbucket? I'll answer that for you. Nothing. It's not superior at all. It was just first.

The BitBucket issue tracker is clunky garbage by comparison, and its general UI doesn’t feel as well thought out. GitHub as a tool is really great.

That said, company values matter.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#637

Post by mattdeboard »

shiven wrote: post #394

Can someone please explain to me why-the-f was a non-employee granted full and free access to other company employees, each and every day, on company premises, without mutual consent? What were the other co-founders thinking? This was a darn time-bomb waiting to explode. Just because you are a fancy-pants, hotshot startup and not a bigco, does not mean the same laws and liabilities don't apply to you. Founders, all t…

"Red tape isn't always a straitjacket. Sometimes it's a crash harness."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7408600

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#638

Post by efuquen »

chanux wrote: post #226
yeukhon wrote: post #183

There seems to be several problems. Not entirely sexism. 1. Founder's wife asked Horvath out and gave her a lecture about who is the boss. Probably out of jealousy. 2. Founder's wife physically inanimate Horvath, making her unwelcome and scared. 3. Founder did not stop the wife and protect his wife. 4. Horvath was approached by a male co-worker and according to her her rejection had caused tension between her and tha…

I, as a male, try to avoid staring at another female because I fear someone like Horvath accuses me of sexism. This is, sadly, the best thing to do because you don't know who is going to take offense. PS: To avoid looking one-sided and narrow (which I believe I'm not) I really feel bad about this whole situation and the lady who had to go through that. Personally liked a github as a company.

I think it's inappropriate to stare at anyone for long, whether male or female. It's normally not considered polite and a bit weird, so I don't get what the issue is?

I get it, you find someone attractive and you want to gawk at them, cool. I learned to control that impulse when when I was hitting puberty. Seriously, there really isn't an excuse and it's inappropriate in most situations.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#639

Post by jusben1369 »

Nursie wrote: post #335
yeukhon wrote: post #183

There seems to be several problems. Not entirely sexism. 1. Founder's wife asked Horvath out and gave her a lecture about who is the boss. Probably out of jealousy. 2. Founder's wife physically inanimate Horvath, making her unwelcome and scared. 3. Founder did not stop the wife and protect his wife. 4. Horvath was approached by a male co-worker and according to her her rejection had caused tension between her and tha…

>>The founder has a good point: try to avoid dating someone working with you Could not disagree more. It's none of the founder's business and the culture in the US that tries to forbid this is sick.

It's not "sick". It's that it's rife with problems. I don't think companies should ban dating but I think it's very wise for them to be wary of it happening and educate their employees, before they start, to imagine what happens if that person becomes their boss or subordinate or breaks up with them and they have to see them everyday at work and work together. And/or starts dating someone else. Or is their superior and has the ability to influence their career with their decisions etc. Or how it feels to be on the same team as two lovebirds.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#640

Post by gruntmaster9000 »

greenrd wrote: post #521
michaelochurch wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before I answer this, let me state that I'm a tactician, not a judge or a god. I don't know who's right and wrong in this mess, nor who's good and who's bad. Can someone explain how does one gets a job after inflicting so much public damage on his previous workplace? It's hard. She may need a professional to rework her public image (even if her account is 100% accurate) and she'll want to settle for positive referenc…

She claims she already has a new job to go to. I have to wonder, though, whether that is still the case after she talked to TechCrunch.

Horvath mentioned on Twitter they supported her coming forward about her experience:

  nrrrdcore: I'm thrilled to be joining a new team in just
  a few weeks and they completely support me coming forward.
https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444881221865054208
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