Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

521–530 of 1001 posts

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#521

Post by greenrd »

michaelochurch wrote: post #459
romanovcode wrote: post #424

Can someone explain how does one gets a job after inflicting so much public damage on his previous workplace?

Before I answer this, let me state that I'm a tactician, not a judge or a god. I don't know who's right and wrong in this mess, nor who's good and who's bad. Can someone explain how does one gets a job after inflicting so much public damage on his previous workplace? It's hard. She may need a professional to rework her public image (even if her account is 100% accurate) and she'll want to settle for positive referenc…

She claims she already has a new job to go to. I have to wonder, though, whether that is still the case after she talked to TechCrunch.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#522

Post by this_user »

abalone wrote: post #347
sgentle wrote: post #235

Ouch. What a terrible situation. I'm holding out for the other side of the story, but unless you're willing to assume the entire thing is invented this is a major fuckup for GitHub. I think this is a classic problem with companies making the transition from small startup to regular business. Break down the barriers! Flat management! Kill bureaucracy and embrace no-politics DIY organisation! The article reads like an…

It may well be that the greatest damage to GitHub here is not on the issue of sexism so much as their advocacy of lean management and organizational "freedom". Although it may have sounded like the "cool teacher" way to address things by having your wife take an employee out for drinks to discuss grievances, clearly this should have been handled in a professional setting according to a clear grievance process. That c…

An organisation without management basically relies on having people who all act rationally all the time and in the best interest of the company as a whole.

The problem is that not many people like that exist and can be recruited. For a sufficiently small organisation peer pressure and a clear-cut common goal may help smooth over the imperfections of the individuals involved. But once the organisation grows to a certain level, those forces will start losing their effectiveness and you require a substitute to ensure reasonably smooth operations.

I think the key take away is that there is no perfect organisational structure. All you can do is to find a structure that works best for the current situation, but you need to be prepared to make changes if your organisation's current stage of development requires it.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#523

Post by clavalle »

gruntmaster9000 wrote: post #480
wyclif wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found that episode terribly confused, and I never understood the rationale behind it. Isn't "meritocracy" a value and environment that feminists have told us over and over again is a positive development for women? Don't women want to work in a "meritocracy" precisely because their work will be valued and appreciated not because they are women but because excellence at work knows no sex, colour, or creed?

Steve Klabnik explains it well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7405881 In short, it’s a not-really-present ideal that’s often used to mask the existing power relationships that are really responsible for people being promoted/demoted to where they are.

The assumption underlying this analysis is that no merit exists outside of subjective value judgement. Furthermore, subjective value judgments are biased in favor of the existing privileged groups. Do I have that about right?

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#524

Post by programminggeek »

I would just like to say that this is not a "women in tech" problem. It's basically that the same dynamics that exist in high school often exist in business, especially small businesses. Replace the location: github with the high school cafeteria and it sounds like not unexpected behavior.

I'm not exactly sure why women in tech think this is about being a woman or being in tech or working at a tech company. The same behavior exists in non tech companies and you can have equally screwed up relationships with coworkers and their spouses as a man.

These problems are basic problems with people interacting with other people.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#525

Post by rsynnott »

greenrd wrote: post #500
rsynnott wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of the situations in the article are pretty much innocent, but feelings provoked in her aren't. Huh? Pretty much none of them are remotely innocent. They range from unprofessional to gross misconduct to potentially illegal.

Reverting someone's commits "silently" (inasmuch as you can do anything silently in git!) is any of those? That's interesting, because my commits were once "silently" reverted at a previous workplace and then when I queried it, it was explained that I was the one in the wrong. Because I had made a commit without discussing it first and without understanding what I was doing. (I would have discussed it first, but the…

There's a _possibility_ that it was just that suddenly after the failed come-on, her commits suddenly needed a lot of reverting (though you'd think Github, of all companies, would have decent policies on communicating on changes; silent reversion is not normal and is likely to cause a lot of confusion).

However, it allegedly started happening _after_ the failed come-on, which would make it retaliatory. That's unprofessional, and probably amounts to gross misconduct.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#526

Post by a1a »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #513
a1a wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This again. Every time someone speaks out about sexism there seems to be a need for some to defend the predators (directly or by declaring that "this is not sexism"). Why do you feel obligated to do so?

Its a double standard. Its allowed to assume the worst motives in male behavior, always gets a pass. Its forbidden to call out despicable behavior in females. And now, it seems its forbidden to explain male behavior as anything but evil. Because they are 'predators' by default. Resorting to these "PC rules of engagement" ends rational discussion. Reducing this to the choir preaching to one another.

I don't believe this story is on "male behavior" nor an attack on every male in the world. It's an story on predators that happen to be male (and female for that matter).

Your answer is kind of what I expected: You believe sexism is an attack on men, and therefore need to be on the defense.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#527

Post by atomical »

cookiecaper wrote: post #296
jd0 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I, as a male, try not to stare at anybody because I'm not a fucking asshole.

If someone is rendering a public performance, aren't you supposed to look at it? When does hula hooping in a public space transfer to a public performance? Is it public immediately because it's in plain sight? Does it only become public after an audience gathers and the hula hooper continues to hula hoop? What if someone sees the gathered audience and joins in so that they won't be considered rude for not taking inte…

Don't take this the wrong way. I think hula hooping is a fine activity that probably burns a decent amount of calories. However, I've never worked at a job where employees jumps through these kind of hoops. I will probably look. And then look away. Pretty much everyone I know will think hula hooping at work is weird. If people tend to stare at you when you hula hoop, do hand stands, or pick your nose you may just have to stop doing it. Most people do not do these things at work and are happy nonetheless.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#528

Post by skyebook »

cwilson wrote: post #512
buro9 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nebulous semi-employee with unspecified responsibilities related to a founder? This is the point that stands out for me. That the wife is not an employee of Github but claims to be able to access private company chat records, and also is able to "work" from within the office and interact with the staff. Even with allowances that company property remains company property and private chat rooms are in fact non-privat…

It's as easy as the wife grabbing the husbands laptop and scanning the Hipchat logs.

GitHub uses campfire, but HipChat does not give any way for a account owners/admins to read personal 1-1 chat logs.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#529

Post by lnanek2 »

I don't understand why she didn't see the founder's wife asking her out to a drink and saying she would work to make her very happy not as an opportunity. She could have asked for her own office at that point, or asked to not have to commit code anymore if the pull request feedback was too harsh and just run the pro-women project she was running, etc.. I would have loved that opportunity.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#530

Post by muglug »

einhverfr wrote: post #504
psykotic wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean, someone reverting your code because of a personal vendetta? I laughed out loud when I read this and several other specific details in the story. It sounded very familiar. I have several friends and many acquaintances who work at Valve. One very senior engineer initially worked on Source 2 about three years ago but had to quickly switch projects because another, more tenured engineer was expressing his disag…

> The founder's wife story also reminds me of episodes I've heard involving the wife cabal. It's nothing as sinister as the GitHub story, but I see a lot of the same structural issues reflected in these telling anecdotes. If you are male and a founder, one of your most valuable business resources is your wife. People will call me sexist for saying this, I expect, but women think socially with a level of complexity th…

> If you are male and a founder, one of your most valuable business resources is your wife.

Um, I'd say that your spouse (of whichever gender) is one of your most valuable business resources, period - if they're someone who can hear your side of the story who aren't actually involved in the situation and someone who knows you better than you know yourself.

But that person should never proceed to involve themselves in your business situation, unless your colleagues approve of their involvement. That appears to be the issue here.

Post reply on HN