Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 128 posts

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#61

Post by shiroiushi »

mym1990 wrote: post #51
shiroiushi wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no real alternative: you either stare at people's shoes, or the ceiling, or you stare at your phone. The trains are crowded so it's basically impossible (during those times of the day) to look anywhere else, and staring at people is rude. Looking out the window isn't practical either: the seats are facing inwards, and there's people on the other side blocking the opposite window.

I'm sure there are alternatives since mass transit has been around since before phones. The belief that the only option is to stare at a screen is a little bit depressing actually. I am not saying I do not do similar things, what struck me was that most people did not seem to have any awareness of what was going on around them. I would observe people on the train and not once did anyone look up. I guess the world out…

>I'm sure there are alternatives since mass transit has been around since before phones.

Of course: before phones became common, everyone read books on the trains. Why exactly is this depressing? Now, instead of reading manga in a physical book, they're reading manga on their phone.

>what struck me was that most people did not seem to have any awareness of what was going on around them. I would observe people on the train and not once did anyone look up.

When you're packed in a crowded train where most people are standing and there's barely enough room for everyone, "observing people" just isn't something you do. Most people aren't tall enough to see anything anyway.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#62

Post by quartesixte »

mym1990 wrote: post #51
shiroiushi wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no real alternative: you either stare at people's shoes, or the ceiling, or you stare at your phone. The trains are crowded so it's basically impossible (during those times of the day) to look anywhere else, and staring at people is rude. Looking out the window isn't practical either: the seats are facing inwards, and there's people on the other side blocking the opposite window.

I'm sure there are alternatives since mass transit has been around since before phones. The belief that the only option is to stare at a screen is a little bit depressing actually. I am not saying I do not do similar things, what struck me was that most people did not seem to have any awareness of what was going on around them. I would observe people on the train and not once did anyone look up. I guess the world out…

>I'm sure there are alternatives since mass transit has been around since before phones.

Japanese novels are sold in small, pocket sized volumes because this was the only way to properly read on the packed trains before the smartphone replaced them all. If you were on a train with a lot more students, you'd notice a lot of them studying with similarly small volumes.

>what struck me was that most people did not seem to have any awareness of what was going on around them.

Something about being in mind numbingly large crowds packed uncomfortably close (like, your face could potentially be in someone's armpit) makes you a bit numb to the crowds.

>I would observe people on the train and not once did anyone look up.

1) You could end up staring at other people. Big no-no. Rude to stare, rude to stare aimlessly, rude to just observe people. Especially because the seats face each other, so staring out at the window without also staring at a fellow passenger is rude. Ever see someone just kind of "sleeping" on the train the minute they get on? Yeah, that's most likely just to close their eyes so they don't end up staring at someone.

2) You could end up staring at something unpleasant. When the trains become packed, you will most likely just be staring at the back of someone's head. Or chest. Or armpit. Or if you're sitting down, you will most likely be staring at someone's pelvic area because the convention is to stand FACING the chair in front of you if you're standing in the middle of the car (I still find this so strange but oh well so goes convention).

3) Plenty of people who find spots at the doors do spend time looking out at the city. Because they can safely do so without inadvertently staring at someone.

4) At some point the entire experience becomes mundane. To you, a tourist, you are experiencing a unique moment. To commuters, it's another Tuesday on the Yamanote line -- they can probably sleepwalk their commute if need be.

Edit: I want to add one more thing, but people ARE aware. I dropped a 100-yen coin once on the way out of the train without realizing, and immediately someone ran up to me with the coin. I think a good way of thinking about the whole thing is that people are aware, but in a way that seems like they're not. But if you're ever on the train again, watch closely -- people are keeping close eyes on who gets up, who gets on, and who is leaving and accordingly makes room.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#63

Post by quartesixte »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #49
shiroiushi wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no real alternative: you either stare at people's shoes, or the ceiling, or you stare at your phone. The trains are crowded so it's basically impossible (during those times of the day) to look anywhere else, and staring at people is rude. Looking out the window isn't practical either: the seats are facing inwards, and there's people on the other side blocking the opposite window.

People can do other things, such as listening to music, an audiobook, reflect, meditate, etc...

Do it with your eyes closed or stare blankly at the advertisements that plaster the walls of the train (conveniently located high up at the ceiling).

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#64

Post by quartesixte »

Great set of photos, but man do I wish they had been able to capture just the sheer flow of people during busy times through the stations. These pictures don't do it justice.

Being part of the hundreds of thousands of people walking through Shinjuku at any point in time is something else you are merely a fish in a stream.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#65

Post by lmm »

SECProto wrote: post #58
lmm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Under JR's definitions 150% capacity means people have enough space to read a newspaper. Having ridden on the Yamanote in peak time, I don't believe that.

How many years ago? Yamanote was above 200% average peak capacity as recently as the mid '00s

This year.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#66

Post by Avicebron »

bobthepanda wrote: post #60
Avicebron wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Japanese highways are heavily tolled and parking in choice areas is expensive. In the US parking is mandated at such high levels that it is given away for free; in Japan parking is entirely market provided and you cannot buy a car without proof of a reserved space which you must purchase this is because of the efficacy of public transport working for most of the populous, getting a car isn't the worst thing in the…

eh, this is the cart before the horse. the US had public frequent transit systems at the turn of the century. the problem was they couldn't compete with brand new free Interstates. It's hard to compete with free.

Well for context, outside of an EZ pass, it costed me about 7$ each way to get from Oakland(hills) to Foster City roughly each way, and I had to drive my own car. And for reference, we call them freeways ;) legacy i know.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#67

Post by presentation »

lmm wrote: post #34
theluketaylor wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Montreal's new REM is running pretty short trains at 30 trains per hour and still has capacity for over 40,000 people per hour. 60 trains per hour with longer trains can do even more. Only a handful of places on earth have the density to require any more capacity than a fully automated double track metro can deliver, and those places all have the tax base to easily support quad tracking or actually better is building…

> Nearly all metros with capacity issues have old, slow sections that limit the entire network (NYC looking at you) or have paused on expanding the network for generations (NYC looking at you again, 2nd ave subway notwithstanding). You're posting this on an article about a line that runs at 158% occupancy during peak times, in a city that certainly hasn't shirked on modernisation or expansion. If you expand far enoug…

Not to mention Yamanote line also shares the same route with many other train lines that serve as extra capacity and express service along segments of the route (Shonan Shinjuku Line, Saikyo Line, Keihin Tohoku Line, etc), as well as multiple other alternate lines that more or less duplicate segments of Yamanote Line (Shibuya-Ikebukuro is also served by Fukutoshin Line with local and express service on a parallel route, for instance). And yet basically all of these lines exceed max capacity daily.

So mass transit isn't exempt from induced demand, but for the width of track it produces much more capacity than equivalent roads. I wonder if Tokyo decided to build a few more lines/expand the capacity of the existing ones (e.g. by building extra tunnels or elevated lines on existing rights of way), if there is a point where the train capacity really could exceed the peak demand the city could produce; but more interestingly, I wonder how many trips don't happen in car-dependent cities (or ones with decrepit transit like NYC) because of how inefficient their infrastructure is at moving people.

A noticeable effect to me of all this transit is that the car traffic on the roads usually is pretty minimal.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#68

Post by lmm »

presentation wrote: post #67
lmm wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nearly all metros with capacity issues have old, slow sections that limit the entire network (NYC looking at you) or have paused on expanding the network for generations (NYC looking at you again, 2nd ave subway notwithstanding). You're posting this on an article about a line that runs at 158% occupancy during peak times, in a city that certainly hasn't shirked on modernisation or expansion. If you expand far enoug…

Not to mention Yamanote line also shares the same route with many other train lines that serve as extra capacity and express service along segments of the route (Shonan Shinjuku Line, Saikyo Line, Keihin Tohoku Line, etc), as well as multiple other alternate lines that more or less duplicate segments of Yamanote Line (Shibuya-Ikebukuro is also served by Fukutoshin Line with local and express service on a parallel rou…

> I wonder if Tokyo decided to build a few more lines/expand the capacity of the existing ones (e.g. by building extra tunnels or elevated lines on existing rights of way), if there is a point where the train capacity really could exceed the peak demand the city could produce

I doubt it - more capacity just means more population growth and more demand. Central London has reached a point where they're worried about the pedestrian capacity on some central bridges. But in what's already the most populous and second most economically productive metro area in the world, of course there are very real benefits to growing further.

> more interestingly, I wonder how many trips don't happen in car-dependent cities (or ones with decrepit transit like NYC) because of how inefficient their infrastructure is at moving people.

NYC does pretty well, but yeah of course available transport affects what people can do. I saw an interesting conception of this as the "effective size" of a city, e.g. how many people and jobs there are within a 30- or 60-minute commute radius.

> A noticeable effect to me of all this transit is that the car traffic on the roads usually is pretty minimal.

Not my experience. Tokyo gets as gridlocked as anywhere else during rush hour, and they're constantly building new roads as well (including e.g. a fourth expressway ringroad).

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#69

Post by wkat4242 »

golergka wrote: post #43
darknavi wrote: post #2

If you've ever stayed in the heart of Tokyo you know the JR Yamanote line well. What a feat for Japan to have it. I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Have more traffic? Just add more trains, no extra rails needed. Yamanote line rush hour showed me how effective that is AND how you might need more rail eventually. Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and t…

> I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Do you honestly think that standing in a crowd with other people's smell all over you is better than being in your personal space, with music and AC turned to your taste, alone, sitting in a comfortable place that you adjusted for yourself? You must be the kind of person who thinks bland rice and unseasoned chicken breasts ar…

In the car you have to pay attention to the road, you have a lot of responsibility and put yourself and others at risk if you don't pay attention. You always have to return to the place you left your car and usually have to pay to park it. I really love public transport and outside peak hours i usually get a seat so I can read a book. If I have to drive, all that time is completely wasted because the attention paying precludes doing anything useful with my time.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#70

Post by jackstraw14 »

jimjimjim wrote: post #3
darknavi wrote: post #2

If you've ever stayed in the heart of Tokyo you know the JR Yamanote line well. What a feat for Japan to have it. I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Have more traffic? Just add more trains, no extra rails needed. Yamanote line rush hour showed me how effective that is AND how you might need more rail eventually. Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and t…

It's a fun experience just being in the absolutely packed rush hour Tokyo trains. Although I don't have to worry about claustrophobia since I'm 6'3 tall and I'm able to look out above the heads of everybody else.

Hmm, as a 6'2" person with claustrophobia issues, I'm quite certain my height makes it much worse!
Post reply on HN