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Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

theguardian.com

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Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#51

Post by mym1990 »

shiroiushi wrote: post #41
numpad0 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of get the snark, but I'm also not sure of an alternative. Extreme population density of Tokyo likely owe a lot to acquired ignorance. No way our brains don't go total schezophrenic being highly social all day long inside the Yamanote loop.

There's no real alternative: you either stare at people's shoes, or the ceiling, or you stare at your phone. The trains are crowded so it's basically impossible (during those times of the day) to look anywhere else, and staring at people is rude. Looking out the window isn't practical either: the seats are facing inwards, and there's people on the other side blocking the opposite window.

I'm sure there are alternatives since mass transit has been around since before phones. The belief that the only option is to stare at a screen is a little bit depressing actually. I am not saying I do not do similar things, what struck me was that most people did not seem to have any awareness of what was going on around them. I would observe people on the train and not once did anyone look up. I guess the world outside of the phone is a pretty boring place. /s

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#52

Post by aabhay »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #13
darknavi wrote: post #2

If you've ever stayed in the heart of Tokyo you know the JR Yamanote line well. What a feat for Japan to have it. I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Have more traffic? Just add more trains, no extra rails needed. Yamanote line rush hour showed me how effective that is AND how you might need more rail eventually. Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and t…

What's also amazing is how well everything is working. They're are on time and stop at the exact right spot: the doors do open precisely where they're meant to.

To be honest I’m more surprised that this isn’t just how things are everywhere.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#53

Post by aabhay »

I lived in Tokyo and literally didn’t know that the Yamanote line was so old, thanks HN! It runs so well, so much quieter than e.g. the BART. Insane that the loop was fully connected by the 1920s.

If you do a bike/walk along the Yamanote, you’ll see TONS of small restaurants and grottos tucked in the spaces between the train tracks and the ground, for miles and miles. They have a great, cozy vibe, and are highly trafficked, usually really fast service from a vending machine outside to maximize use of space. And sometimes astonishingly delicious.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#54

Post by kalleboo »

bobthepanda wrote: post #48
Avicebron wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One important part of the privatization was that the government took on this debt load to unshackle the newly private companies. Which certainly in some accounting systems be seen as a bailout or form of government support for these newly privatized companies, which the government probably wouldn't do if they didn't see these rail lines as a form of public good (or at least necessity). I think another user mentione…

The other important bits to have functioning rail is that * Japanese highways are heavily tolled and parking in choice areas is expensive. In the US parking is mandated at such high levels that it is given away for free; in Japan parking is entirely market provided and you cannot buy a car without proof of a reserved space which you must purchase * Japanese commuting is heavily subsidized to the tune of 100,000JPY a…

> Japanese highways are heavily tolled

As an example. For me to get to the nearest large city, it's a 4 hour drive, 7000 yen in highway tolls and around 3000 yen in gas. Or a 2 hour Shinkansen ride for 9000 yen. If you're a solo businessman the choice is a no-brainer. If you're traveling with the family, then you're still gonna drive.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#55

Post by SECProto »

sofixa wrote: post #6
darknavi wrote: post #2

If you've ever stayed in the heart of Tokyo you know the JR Yamanote line well. What a feat for Japan to have it. I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Have more traffic? Just add more trains, no extra rails needed. Yamanote line rush hour showed me how effective that is AND how you might need more rail eventually. Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and t…

> I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Have more traffic? Just add more trains, no extra rails needed. Yamanote line rush hour showed me how effective that is AND how you might need more rail eventually. Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and they were still packed. I mean they are much better, but this is only true to a point. You can't get better than…

> You can't get better than 60-90s frequency per direction on a classic fully automated dual track line.

Note that this is 40-60 trains per hour, and each Yamanote train holds 1724 people, giving a capacity of 69,000-100,000 passengers per hour per direction

A highway lane operating at peak capacity can carry fewer than 2000 vehicles per hour. If each vehicle held typical passenger loading of 2 passengers (average occupancy is actually lower in most cities), the yamanote line would need 17-25 highway lanes in each direction to replace one track in each direction (plus way more space for entering and exiting the highway than a subway station requires).

So while your fundamental point (train tracks have limits) is true, by that point a comparison with automobile infrastructure is truly absurd!

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#56

Post by Avicebron »

bobthepanda wrote: post #48
Avicebron wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One important part of the privatization was that the government took on this debt load to unshackle the newly private companies. Which certainly in some accounting systems be seen as a bailout or form of government support for these newly privatized companies, which the government probably wouldn't do if they didn't see these rail lines as a form of public good (or at least necessity). I think another user mentione…

The other important bits to have functioning rail is that * Japanese highways are heavily tolled and parking in choice areas is expensive. In the US parking is mandated at such high levels that it is given away for free; in Japan parking is entirely market provided and you cannot buy a car without proof of a reserved space which you must purchase * Japanese commuting is heavily subsidized to the tune of 100,000JPY a…

> Japanese highways are heavily tolled and parking in choice areas is expensive. In the US parking is mandated at such high levels that it is given away for free; in Japan parking is entirely market provided and you cannot buy a car without proof of a reserved space which you must purchase

this is because of the efficacy of public transport working for most of the populous, getting a car isn't the worst thing in the world, but you need to be able to pay for it, show insurance, whatever. Also don't be a foreigner who can't speak Japanese. Basic rules.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#57

Post by golemiprague »

lmm wrote: post #32
renewiltord wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's great to use as a tourist. Very easy to get where you want and top notch frequency. One thing I thought was interesting is that transit advocates in the California I was visiting from push for free transit and transit sucks balls here while Japan generally was fee-paid transit and their transit ruled. I frequently travel to Hong Kong and I moved to California from London and so I looked them up and they hadn't t…

Japanese trains are de facto free for many users as employers are de facto required to pay their employees' train commute costs. So I don't know what bizarre mental leap you're making here, or why you're focusing on cost in the first place. > I frequently travel to Hong Kong and I moved to California from London and so I looked them up and they hadn't transformed to free either. Try going to Luxembourg sometime.

[dead]

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#58

Post by SECProto »

lmm wrote: post #37
theluketaylor wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under JR's definitions 150% capacity means people have enough space to read a newspaper. It's 200%+ that is the image of Japanese people being pushed onto the train by the white gloved staff.

> Under JR's definitions 150% capacity means people have enough space to read a newspaper. Having ridden on the Yamanote in peak time, I don't believe that.

How many years ago? Yamanote was above 200% average peak capacity as recently as the mid '00s

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#59

Post by shiroiushi »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #49
shiroiushi wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no real alternative: you either stare at people's shoes, or the ceiling, or you stare at your phone. The trains are crowded so it's basically impossible (during those times of the day) to look anywhere else, and staring at people is rude. Looking out the window isn't practical either: the seats are facing inwards, and there's people on the other side blocking the opposite window.

People can do other things, such as listening to music, an audiobook, reflect, meditate, etc...

You still have to look somewhere. Lots of people certainly do listen to music, judging by all the people wearing wireless earbuds I see, but if they're not staring at their phone, they're staring at their lap, or sleeping.

It's not quite this bad on uncrowded trains though. We're talking about the Yamanote line which is generally very crowded.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#60

Post by bobthepanda »

Avicebron wrote: post #56
bobthepanda wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other important bits to have functioning rail is that * Japanese highways are heavily tolled and parking in choice areas is expensive. In the US parking is mandated at such high levels that it is given away for free; in Japan parking is entirely market provided and you cannot buy a car without proof of a reserved space which you must purchase * Japanese commuting is heavily subsidized to the tune of 100,000JPY a…

> Japanese highways are heavily tolled and parking in choice areas is expensive. In the US parking is mandated at such high levels that it is given away for free; in Japan parking is entirely market provided and you cannot buy a car without proof of a reserved space which you must purchase this is because of the efficacy of public transport working for most of the populous, getting a car isn't the worst thing in the…

eh, this is the cart before the horse.

the US had public frequent transit systems at the turn of the century. the problem was they couldn't compete with brand new free Interstates. It's hard to compete with free.

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