For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business • Hacker News Board

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#591

Post by read_if_gay_ » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 10:30 AM UTC

eloisant wrote: post #557

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a huge part of the problem isn't it? I think this is the problem. Say a black guy with gold teeth, tons of tattoos and colorful dreadlocks and a middle aged white guy walk in. One of them is a rapper. Who is it? Based on experience, most people will certainly assume the black guy is. What if it turns out it’s the white guy? Are they unconsciously racist against white people or are they just following experi…

It certainly makes sense to assume (in your head) the black guy is a rapper, and the white guy is a tech CEO. But when you know how it makes people feel when you make your assumption visible, you understand the need to act like anyone could be the CEO, the developer, etc. Same goes for women devs who at tech conferences who are too often "assumed" to be girlfriends, recruiters or other non-tech participants. Yes, the…

I’m not arguing that you should make your assumptions visible (I agree it’s better to just ask), I’m just saying racism isn’t the root cause here and any attempts to fix this issue assuming that it is are going to be ineffective at best and counterproductive at worst. We should work on fixing the actual issue.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#592

Post by raxxorrax » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 10:34 AM UTC

Larrikin wrote: post #342

DenisM wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the current organization "police" is not providing the services it's customers want Is that really true? What do you think will happen if we put it up for a vote? Something like: defund police - yes/no?

The people who have faced the discrimination, know people affected by it, or have educated themselves about the discrimination will vote yes and the people who have not faced the discrimination and want to believe its mostly made up because they have never been personally effected by it will vote no. 20 years ago its easy to see how the vote would have ended up, but now with tons of cell phone footage and large scale…

People who faced discrimination often like the police and stability instead of mob justice. Since there is a problem with racial profiling there might be some skewed results.

Many parents of black children tell them to be wary of police. Police sees more crime in these areas and we have a self reinforcing problem of distrust. Additionally there are clueless white people talking about being their personal savior.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#593

Post by Udik » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 10:43 AM UTC

eloisant wrote: post #557

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a huge part of the problem isn't it? I think this is the problem. Say a black guy with gold teeth, tons of tattoos and colorful dreadlocks and a middle aged white guy walk in. One of them is a rapper. Who is it? Based on experience, most people will certainly assume the black guy is. What if it turns out it’s the white guy? Are they unconsciously racist against white people or are they just following experi…

It certainly makes sense to assume (in your head) the black guy is a rapper, and the white guy is a tech CEO. But when you know how it makes people feel when you make your assumption visible, you understand the need to act like anyone could be the CEO, the developer, etc. Same goes for women devs who at tech conferences who are too often "assumed" to be girlfriends, recruiters or other non-tech participants. Yes, the…

> But when you know how it makes people feel when you make your assumption visible...

How people feel depends on their own assumptions on why you made the mistake. Say that yours was a perfectly natural mistake based on innate heuristics, and there is no value judgement implied. If this is the way your mistake is interpreted, no feelings are hurt. But if you spread the idea that this is racism and a value judgement is implied, then feelings are hurt, and it becomes a serious issue.

So the way you frame the issue actually ends up creating the issue.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#594

Post by christophilus » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 10:45 AM UTC

js2 wrote: post #195

ibudiallo wrote: post #140

I usually choose to believe in "the honest mistake". It happens, two people walk in, one of them is the CEO, you assume it is the one on the right. And then when you realize it is a mistake, you apologize. We are only human. But when it happens over and over and over, you can't help but feel frustrated. You realize that people natural instinct is to think you are the subordinate. One second your are on stage at Techc…

I am Jewish. This gives me no insight into what it is to be black in America. But it does give me some insight into what it is to be a minority in America. I have an inkling of your loneliness and you have my profound sympathy. I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for others. (I also never realized wha…

I’m a white Catholic. The first time I experienced being a minority was in Korea. It was definitely unsettling how many people seemed openly or somewhat unhappy we were there. I can’t imagine living my entire life with that sense! If you just normalized it and moved on, I imagine you’d have deep psychological effects and chronic career challenges, etc. So, yeah, pretty much what we see minorities face around the world. I don’t know the solution, though.

It seems to me pretty much impossible that a white person would ever fully feel like part of the group in Korea, even if 100% of the hostility was replaced by genuine love. You’d be different.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#595

Post by christophilus » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 10:47 AM UTC

nicolas_t wrote: post #486

freddie_mercury wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for others. You would be surprised at how pervasive and long-lasting majority privilege can be. I live in Southeast Asia where foreigners are a very distinct minority and they experience all kinds of hardships. Difficulties making (local) friends, difficulties dea…

Anecdotal but I've lived in different Asian countries for the last 15 years and my experience is that expats who live in compounds geared toward their nationality, never eat local food and never bothered to learn the local language tend to also be very racist. You'll hear them non-stop complaining about the locals or making sarcastic comments about them, about them having no manners, not speaking English properly (ir…

Why were they living there, if they despised those cultures? (Genuine question, not rhetorical.)

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#596

Post by notahacker » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 10:56 AM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #271

panopticon wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a stereotype, likely a correct one [snip], and most importantly: not harmful. It's just a stereotype. Citation on those not being harmful? Stereotypes like that seem to be a driving factor in why STEM fields are very male dominated. "Girls don't like cars; go find some dolls to play with."

This is often claimed, but not something that holds up to scrutiny. Women's representation in technology peaked in the US during the 1980s. Are we really going to argue that gender stereotypes are stronger in 2020 than 30-40 years ago? Similarly, countries with low gender equality actually have higher rates of women in STEM as compared to more egalitarian countries [1]. I don't disagree that some my find stereotypes…

The cross sectional data is interesting and certainly puts a dent in simplistic explanations that only the patriarchy is preventing gender parity in STEM. But then again, variation in male/female average preferences by time and place works overall in favour of arguments that cultural factors like stereotyping influence career choices (and against biological predispositions being the one true explanation for female underrepresentation). It's not entirely impossible that women are simply more inclined to pick professions other than tech as barriers to other careers are removed (I'm sure the stereotypes that women don't belong in finance or law are stronger in the UAE and were stronger in the 1980s US). But once one acknowledges that alienation [and anticipation of discrimination, and role models] probably plays some role in career selection, the question becomes why it wouldn't be a driving factor in [self]selection for a field where US gender gaps were much smaller when it was a non-traditional niche attracting comparatively little attention than when it was a mainstream white collar career choice but one whose male nerd stereotypes are firmly ingrained in public consciousness.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#597

Post by calf » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 11:03 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #482

darth_avocado wrote: post #187

For everyone arguing "honest mistake" or "just chance", think about the person at the receiving end. For the person making that mistake, it could be their first, but for the person at the receiving end it could be the hundredth, and that too, not without consequences. The first 3-4 times I got "randomly selected" for additional screening at the airport, I was like whatever. But years later after my probably 100th "ra…

>It is humiliating This is a common theme in a number of stories in this thread that I don't understand. How and why does being a victim of racism translate into shame? When I am subject to injustice, my emotional reaction has always been fury and frustration.

Because fury and frustration requires energy.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#598

Post by wilsonfiifi » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 11:06 AM UTC

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”

  - Buckminster Fuller.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#599

Post by eythian » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 11:07 AM UTC

javieranton wrote: post #535

bmn__ wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The very fact they find it necessary to use a different word to describe themselves, "expats", than what they call foreigners who live in their countries, "immigrants", shows that they do not at all consider themselves to be in any way similar. I was taught these are two words for different concepts. An immigrant expects to take permanent residence in a foreign country, an expatriate – temporarily. The former doing…

Expat = white/pale skin immigrant. Racial entitlement continues to this day. Notice how only white people ever choose to consider themselves to be "expats"

That's certainly not my experience, as someone who relocated to a European capital for work. I work with people from all over with various skin colours, and pretty much everyone everyone self-identifies as an expat.

The main difference seems to be whether they're people moving there to make a new life in a new place, and the work is secondary vs. it's the work that gets them to move (and if you move for work, it's probable that you're being paid more, so have the luxury to have the option to move somewhere else in a comparatively short time.)

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#600

Post by eythian » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 11:12 AM UTC

davedx wrote: post #520

js2 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am Jewish. This gives me no insight into what it is to be black in America. But it does give me some insight into what it is to be a minority in America. I have an inkling of your loneliness and you have my profound sympathy. I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for others. (I also never realized wha…

I'm a white British guy living in the Netherlands. I'll never forget shortly after moving here, I was sat in the garden with our Dutch neighbours and my Dutch girlfriend, and the man started complaining about "immigrants" and all the problems they brought to the Netherlands. My girlfriend said "you know Dave is an immigrant?" and he just waved it away, "Not you, you're not like them". Obviously he wasn't talking abou…

It does look like it's improving at a rate of knots though. Hell, even Rutte got on the bandwagon recently which is not something I thought I'd see.

A friend of mine was talking about it recently (her family are from Egypt, but she's born and raised Dutch) and she said she probably notices more issues from being a woman than looking "Arabic." This is Amsterdam though, and it's hard to generalise from here to the rest of the country.