For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business • Hacker News Board

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#511

Post by RonanTheGrey » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 7:33 AM UTC

charlesu wrote: post #318

JPKab wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read "White Fragility". While I completely agree that the stories in this article are hugely problematic and represent issues that need to be solved, I think books like "White Fragility" are not helpful in solving them. This is due to a focus on group identity, and describing "White" as if it's a monolithic group of people, all with the same culture, emotions, and reactions. Another interesting aspect I identifi…

> Another interesting aspect I identified while reading the book was it's description of the emotions that one can expect to see when confronting white people about race issues: the description could have been used to describe any human being you will ever meet when you accuse/blame them for something that they did not personally do. I've heard this before and don't understand it. Why should talking about racial issu…

Here's an example.

You've never catcalled. You've never been catcalled. You've never been threatened for rejecting someone's advances and you've never threatened when yours were rejected.

That same woman comes to you and says "All men are sexist and do not respect women, and that includes you. You are horrible. You deserve to know how I feel."

How would you respond? I would think "favorably" would not be high on your list.

THAT is the type of discourse being used about race. It is not helpful. It doesn't identify the problems. It doesn't empower people to fix them. It doesn't inspire them to. I'm truly not sure what people think they are accomplishing to be honest.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#512

Post by seppin » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 7:35 AM UTC

jsharf wrote: post #483

gfxgirl wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you live? I have no idea what it's like to be Jewish but I have Jewish friends and have had Jewish bosses. I couldn't tell them apart from any other white people in the area. If they hadn't told me they were Jewish I'd never have known nor cared. I certainly didn't treat them different. At what point are we all just different? I can't meet people that are into my particular hobby. I also go to clubs and bars…

Christmas feels weird to me -- It feels vaguely exclusive.

I mean no offense by this, but the jewish experience in America doesn't compare to the black experience. In 99% of cases you are just another white person.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

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Post by hef19898 » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 7:35 AM UTC

blub wrote: post #466

lukev wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you wait to do anything about systemic racism until it's fully quantified, it will be a long time until we can make any progress. Meanwhile, a central point of the book is one that should be self evident. Talking about racism makes white people[1] uncomfortable. I know this to be true from experience. And we can't make progress as a society until we own that discomfort and are willing to have frank conversations a…

Talking about racism makes white people uncomfortable because whether it's talking about a specific individual or not, there's an implicit undertone that they're also white and part of the problem. This is particularly grating when considering that white people are a very diverse group and the experience of a white male in Iran is completely different to the one of a white upper-class female in the US or a lower-inco…

Racism against white people? Definetly notin the wstern world.

And if you really want to put a strawman for anti-white-racism up there, use some of the actually happened atrocities against white land owners in some Africna countries after de-colonisation. Obviously without the historic context, because it wouldn't work otherwise. Don't pick Iran, besides being the current boogey man for conservative circles, it really is a bad example for racism. Unless you want to go deep into the shiit-suunit conflict in the Arab World. Which would obviously totally off-topic for this thread.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#514

Post by zerr » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 7:36 AM UTC

js2 wrote: post #195

ibudiallo wrote: post #140

I usually choose to believe in "the honest mistake". It happens, two people walk in, one of them is the CEO, you assume it is the one on the right. And then when you realize it is a mistake, you apologize. We are only human. But when it happens over and over and over, you can't help but feel frustrated. You realize that people natural instinct is to think you are the subordinate. One second your are on stage at Techc…

I am Jewish. This gives me no insight into what it is to be black in America. But it does give me some insight into what it is to be a minority in America. I have an inkling of your loneliness and you have my profound sympathy. I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for others. (I also never realized wha…

I guess you're mixing up the religion vs ethnic origin? I mean, if we put the religion aside, can we say the same about e.g. Irish or Italian Americans?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#515

Post by churchillracist » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 7:37 AM UTC

forgot_user1234 wrote: post #479

ibudiallo wrote: post #140

I usually choose to believe in "the honest mistake". It happens, two people walk in, one of them is the CEO, you assume it is the one on the right. And then when you realize it is a mistake, you apologize. We are only human. But when it happens over and over and over, you can't help but feel frustrated. You realize that people natural instinct is to think you are the subordinate. One second your are on stage at Techc…

Why doesn't this ever happen to indian ceos. Sundar, Satya, ibm's ceo, or bazillion other companies

It happened to Sundar. There was an incident at a tech conference where he was walking through the booths and some people started asking for selfies with him. The "booth guy" who had condescending look grabbed Sundar's nametag slightly tugging on his neck without requesting his permission to see who he was. People were shocked at how rude the physical contact was. More ought to have been made of that. That booth guy should have been at least reprimanded for doing that to anyone, let alone Google's CEO.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#516

Post by demarq » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 7:40 AM UTC

throwaway_day wrote: post #436

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

I thought this was a great article. One of the most interesting things to me was how the embarrassment/defensiveness of the white people involved was one of the biggest blocks to the black CEOs in their advancement, e.g. the VCs who "just wanted to get the hell out of there" after mistaking a white subordinate for the CEO. I've recently been reading/watching some videos and writings by Robin Diangelo on systemic raci…

"Everyone in the US was raised in an environment that inculcated certain racial ideas, subconsciously or not." This is bolder than I think you think it is. It's maybe evasive, too -- which ideas, exactly? "I'm sorry, please excuse me for the instance of racism I just perpetrated against you, I promise it won't happen again." There's no doubt the person in question should apologize, but what "racism" has been "perpetr…

Racism is treating people differently based on the colour of their skin in a way that will impact them negatively.

> awkward faux pas

Just stop downplaying it. You are judging the "good intentions" here and ignoring the real and serious repercussions for someone who will have to go through this every day. A good intention would be to catch yourself and others perpetrating a "faux pas" and let them know that it is a serious mistake to dismiss someone because of their race.

what is so hard about treating people decently.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#517

Post by malandrew » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 7:50 AM UTC

Auracle wrote: post #299

agar wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't weigh in from personal experience, but I look at it like a marathon. One set of runners face a first half of the race with mud, crushed glass, vertical climbs, and other obstacles, while other racers had a nice tailwind and extra drink stations. Regardless of the obstacles faced in the second half (which are still more numerous than the competition's), can't you understand why runners would still look back at…

You could also argue that the large majority of black people still alive came in to the race halfway through as well. At some point it just becomes an excuse. Constantly blaming other people is a good way to never have any self improvement.

What you’re describing is known as the soft bigotry of low expectations and the anti racism crowd is perpetuating this form of systemic racism:

https://1776unites.com/featured-essays/the-1619-project-perp...

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#518

Post by mundu_wa_hinya » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 7:54 AM UTC

I joined a growing team in South Africa as the only black in ~40; and a foreigner to boot. When I left 3 years later we were only 2 out of 120. In the years that I was there, I probably participated in about 100+ interviews. In that whole time, I never got a single black South African interviewee. Not even for an internship! To be clear, I had phone screens with folks from Egypt, Pakistan, UK, Nigeria etc. I think the black community in South Africa is in a wedge.

My 2 cents: Systemic issues probably cause them to rarely progress to white collar jobs. The kids in the education system don't see any benefit in progressing to higher education because, they don't know anyone in their family/neighborhood who made it. Compound it with schools that have gangs in them [1] and an easy choice appears. 1. Slog through education with probably no chance of a good job (from a young person's view point) or 2. Join this gang, make money, drive fast cars and belong.

1. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u6eb6fNVfmo

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#519

Post by junke » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 7:56 AM UTC

neonate wrote: post #227

junke wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism needs not be voluntary to be racism. You just learn to expect some things to be more probable than others, but are those heuristics really based on actual facts or just biases? If you expect some kind of people to be in charge rather than others, it is a symptom of widespread racism/sexism in your environment. You doing the "mistake" does not mean you necessarily, actively, try to cause harm. But you still do,…

I think you meant to say "doesn't need to be voluntary". "Needs not to be" has exactly the opposite meaning, though it's an uncommon way to put it in English.

I am not a native English speaker and I appreciate being corrected about grammar and usage. I thought it was the same meaning as "doesn't need to", and looking around forums etc. I cannot find confirmation of what you describe. Do you have an example where the expression has the opposite meaning? Thanks.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#520

Post by davedx » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 8:01 AM UTC

js2 wrote: post #195

ibudiallo wrote: post #140

I usually choose to believe in "the honest mistake". It happens, two people walk in, one of them is the CEO, you assume it is the one on the right. And then when you realize it is a mistake, you apologize. We are only human. But when it happens over and over and over, you can't help but feel frustrated. You realize that people natural instinct is to think you are the subordinate. One second your are on stage at Techc…

I am Jewish. This gives me no insight into what it is to be black in America. But it does give me some insight into what it is to be a minority in America. I have an inkling of your loneliness and you have my profound sympathy. I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for others. (I also never realized wha…

I'm a white British guy living in the Netherlands. I'll never forget shortly after moving here, I was sat in the garden with our Dutch neighbours and my Dutch girlfriend, and the man started complaining about "immigrants" and all the problems they brought to the Netherlands. My girlfriend said "you know Dave is an immigrant?" and he just waved it away, "Not you, you're not like them". Obviously he wasn't talking about well behaved white guys like me with his sweeping generalization, he meant the brown skinned guys.

White privilege is very much a thing in the Netherlands. Even if someone knows you're not Dutch, as long as you look northern European it's fine. If you look like Zwarte Piet though, well, many Dutchies would much rather you went back to where you came from. Except when it's time to bring presents to the white Dutch kids. Then we love those adorable blackfaces!

Actually things are changing in the Netherlands, some of it for the better, but there's still a significant, stubbornly racist population here. Much more than you'd think when hearing about "tolerant Netherlands" from outside.