My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown • Hacker News Board

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#571

Post by lazide » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:45 AM UTC

crazydoggers wrote: post #569

lazide wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The brain as an organ analogy doesn't also reflect the self-reflective, self-influencing, learning side of it well. A kidney doesn't remember the last time someone abused it and react reflexively when they see that person. It also doesn't tend to go into tight loops of racing thoughts about that person randomly either. If you treat it like it is a simple organ (x thing happens, give drug y), it can lead to some reall…

> The brain as an organ analogy doesn't also reflect the self-reflective, self-influencing, learning side of it well. Except it’s not an analogy… it’s literally an organ. Software happens to run on top of it… and when there are bugs in on, we call those functional diseases. But understand that the physical organ and system underlies all if it. If your cpu or memory are broken.. no software or software fixes can fix t…

It’s truly a singularly unique and poorly understood organ which also is the only known organ trying to understand itself - which is my point. Saying ‘it’s just an organ’ dismisses and minimizes all the important parts.

And the brain, just like many processors CAN and does work around damaged memory, and can and does work around damaged processors/bugs (depending on the nature and severity of them of course). Phineas Gage being one of the clearest recent examples, but there are many more.

Minimizing what is going on to saying ‘it’s all chemical processes’ is really missing the point - it would be like saying a modern CPU is ‘just moving electrons around’. It’s reductio ad absurdum.

I haven’t personally run across a Buddhist philosophy claiming knowledge of the way the brain works. I have run across Buddhist philosophy claiming to know how the universe works, which seemed pretty silly to me. I’ve also run across Buddhist philosophy aiming to provide tools to help people better understand and connect with it and themselves better, which I personally have found helpful.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#572

Post by littlethrowaway » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:19 AM UTC

mandmandam wrote: post #134

littlethrowaway wrote: post #61

Ha! I thought it might have been vipassana. My own experience of this (a 10 day silent retreat, not having done meditation before) was a full blown manic-psychotic experience (never having had any such thing before, nor in family history). If you're interested, I made some audio files [0] talking about what happened. I honestly think it's _insane_ that they (vipassana) will take regular people who haven't done medita…

Bi-polar is specifically screened for as a contra-indication for retreats, at least Goenka ones (along with Reiki practice, interestingly). They may still allow a diagnosed individual on, but are supposed to give extra attention. What retreat did you go on, and did they ask about bi-polar experience pre-retreat?

Sorry for the late reply. I'd never had a bipolar experience before the retreat. It is my firm opinion that 10 days of a complete silent retreat was too much stress and triggered it.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#573

Post by littlethrowaway » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:21 AM UTC

mircea wrote: post #128

littlethrowaway wrote: post #61

Ha! I thought it might have been vipassana. My own experience of this (a 10 day silent retreat, not having done meditation before) was a full blown manic-psychotic experience (never having had any such thing before, nor in family history). If you're interested, I made some audio files [0] talking about what happened. I honestly think it's _insane_ that they (vipassana) will take regular people who haven't done medita…

How would you describe your psychological state before going to your first 10 day meditation retreat?

It was a long time ago now, 11 years or something. I think I was probably fairly happy, but, maybe at a little bit of a loose end.

The main reason I went on it was because doing a meditation retreat was suggested at a leadership seminar I went to! I was keeping a blog and I thought it would be "interesting" to go on the course. I was right about that ;)

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#574

Post by littlethrowaway » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:24 AM UTC

eurasiantiger wrote: post #66

littlethrowaway wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, a very similar thing happened to me actually, and while I agree about the fist-fight comment, I honestly didn't have any childhood trauma. Came from a loving, pretty privileged family, but I still went off the rails with a 10 day silent retreat! It's extremely easy to dismiss people like this, but, have a care, there are real people on the other end of your dismissive comments.

Suggest you book an appointment with a professional to talk about your childhood and family dynamics. Everyone has a different sense of normal unless we compare.

Heh, I have seen professionals, one literally said "I don't know why you're coming to see me!" ;)

What I'm curious about: Are you suggesting that it is childhood trauma that will trigger a bipolar episode (rather than the 10 days of silent meditation 10 days in a row!)

If "everyone" has childhood trauma, why don't we see a higher incidence of bipolar disorder in the population?

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#575

Post by mensetmanus1861 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:30 AM UTC

russelldjimmy wrote: post #505

mensetmanus1861 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a 10 day meditation (vipassana) few years ago. I remember some fellow meditators (majority of the sessions are in a hall full of meditators) having emotionally intense experiences (someone would cry inconsolably, someone will shout for few moments suddenly). I personally per say did not experience any such external emotional outburst but definitely got better clarity and calmness towards daily routine life. The…

I did a 10 day Vipassana course a few months ago. I went in with no expectations, except to disconnect from the online world for 10 days. The course had a subtle yet profound effect on me. But I couldn’t put my finger on it till I incorporated the practice in my daily life. Since then, I have been practising Vipassana and/or Anapan every day (sometimes twice a day) and I realised that my entire life had been coloured…

My experience was very high level of calmness in day to day life. I sort of felt like Neo of the Matrix where I knew what to do in any tough situation and my action was based on objective analysis of the situation vs mind getting colored with different emotions. All tough decisions seemed less difficult to make because you can now separate emotions from the situation. To give an example - As soon as I reached home after finished the course, I learnt that my grandmother is in coma after suffering from a brain stroke. Everyone around me was in a panic state as to what is happening and what to do. I could think more clearly and immediately went into action mode (is she getting right care, how do we get a second opinion, what are our options etc). I accepted reality as it is. Similarly, I had to make a major decision that I was confused about (which is why I went the course in the first place), I think I was able to make the right decision (it's been few years since the decision was made and I am happy about it).

You also become comfortable as to who you are vs seeking validation about yourself.

Overall, it was a positive experience for me.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#576

Post by mensetmanus1861 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:44 AM UTC

vs1574 wrote: post #563

mensetmanus1861 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a 10 day meditation (vipassana) few years ago. I remember some fellow meditators (majority of the sessions are in a hall full of meditators) having emotionally intense experiences (someone would cry inconsolably, someone will shout for few moments suddenly). I personally per say did not experience any such external emotional outburst but definitely got better clarity and calmness towards daily routine life. The…

I just got back from a 10 day Vipassana course a week and a half ago. So this whole thread is timely. I went with no expectations except wanting to give the technique an honest try. On Day 5 I experienced anxiety and a panic attack. Never had one before - ever. I didn't know what I was feeling. On Day 6 it got worse. On Day 7 I almost quit but after talking to the teacher and course manager decided to persist. On day…

Note: I am no teacher of Vipassana and merely a student (that too not advanced), so my thoughts should be taken with a grain of salt.

The folks running the course do have a screening by asking you certain questions in the enrollment form and they do ask you to talk to someone if you are confused or concerned about any question. It is not a strong screening but screening nonetheless. How effective it is, I don't know and it also comes down to how forthcoming the student is in clearly stating his/her condition.

Having said the above, people do experience intense emotions like you mentioned as I observed first hand. My take based on what I learnt in the course and afterwards is that throughout life since we are born, we experience life and it builds up certain kind of emotions in ourselves. Depending on who had what experience in life, the build up can be very strong. Vipassana attempts to rid you of the emotional build up that one has accumulated. The act of crying or shouting, or anything else is an act of getting the emotion out of the system and be left with a cleaner state of mind. How long the emotional outburst will continue will depend on how much one has accumulated in life.

I would summarize this as - In order to fill a cup with afresh, you must empty it first. You can't fill an already full cup.

One may also want to read U G Krishnamurthi. One of his quotes that I really like is `When the movement in the direction of becoming something other than what you are isn't there any more, you are not in conflict with yourself.` another way to interpret this is that emotional build happens when you action is in conflict with your inner self and over a period of time, the build up keeps growing resulting in problems (I have had emotional build ups that I have worked very hard to get rid of).

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#577

Post by plutonorm » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 12:33 PM UTC

maxduckworth wrote: post #338

plutonorm wrote: post #32

I also experienced something similar. While meditating at work I experienced a state of profound bliss and extreme bodily sensations. What followed this was a disintegration where I dropped into an existential crisis that lasted for about a year. However during this time I faced a number of demons which I hadn’t been able to face up until that point. Now, about 5 years later I am in a good place and am ramping up my…

If you are open to sharing, what did you do, if anything, to make it through the year of crisis? Did you stop meditating like the author, seek outside help, continue meditating or something else?

I went to a therapist to work through the things that had come up. The existential crisis also led to a re-evaluation of the nature of reality - I now hold a panpsychist position. But the philosophical stuff, no therapist was going to be on my level and able to help. So that stuff I worked through on my own.

I stopped meditating as a practice immediately. I toyed with it sometimes during everyday life, watching the trees go passed on the train, trying to be indifferent as strong emotions rocked me. I was mostly too preoccupied with redefining who I was to be bothered by further exploration.

Also note that I was not strongly aware of the connection between the experience I had meditating and the psychological disintegration that followed. I considered it a possibility, but not a strong one. For me it was just an evolution that was in progress. A darkness that had to be faced and an existential horror that I had to make peace with.

It's only after the fact that I can clearly see the connection. Perhaps it is coincidence, but I think it is more likely not.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#578

Post by jl2718 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

_mhr_ wrote: post #568

jl2718 wrote: post #486

Every time I read something like this, the author turns out to be a regular drug user. I don’t necessarily have anything against that, but, having been sober my entire life, and having experimented heavily with natural hallucination methods such as lucidity, I seriously doubt that this level of intensity is possible. Aside from actual near-death experience (been there), it is extremely hard to hold onto even mild sen…

What is "lucidity"? Do you mean lucid dreaming?

Yes.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#579

Post by EdwardDiego » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #535

EdwardDiego wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an actual zen teacher who has received transmission, not a charlatan I'm really hoping you were going for darkly ironic humour, if not, please reread your sentence I quoted and, I don't know, contemplate on it. Received transmission? From the Trisolarians perhaps?

Transmission occurs when one has fully internalised a practice that one has learned from a master (of that practice). You may be able to teach yourself meditation from a book, without a teacher. But that can't confer on you the confidence that you're doing it right. Many practices depend critically on confidence. Of course, you have to be confident that your master has really mastered the particular practice; you gai…

...I don't really want to hear about your religious beliefs, tbh, I've had a lifetime of it already, and I've decided you're all charlatans.

Especially if you unnecessarily revert to jargon when trying to explain your beliefs, you mention "tulku" four times, but define it zero times. This is indicative of in-group signaling.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#580

Post by culebron21 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #381

In the midst of all of the "You're just doing Buddhism wrong!" comments, I would like to point out the PLOS One paper mentioned in the article, "The varieties of contemplative experience: A mixed-methods study of meditation-related challenges in Western Buddhists" ( https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... ). " In one of the only prospective studies to use qualitative methods to deliberately as…

I'm also shocked by "you're doing it wrong" comments, "get a teacher" advices (this is addressed in the OP article as well), and a barrage of anecdotal evidence.