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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

danlawton.substack.com

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Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#61

Post by littlethrowaway »

Ha! I thought it might have been vipassana. My own experience of this (a 10 day silent retreat, not having done meditation before) was a full blown manic-psychotic experience (never having had any such thing before, nor in family history). If you're interested, I made some audio files [0] talking about what happened.

I honestly think it's _insane_ that they (vipassana) will take regular people who haven't done meditation and allow them to do a 10 day silent retreat. I honestly think it's like taking a regular person and allowing them to go down a grade 4 or 5 river. They might make it, but they might get seriously hurt too.

I actually raised this point with the local (New Zealand) health and disability ombudsman. I said that vipassana ought to have a psychologist to assess people as they left, or at least _something_ like that. Nothing changed as far as I am aware.

I hope the author continues to get better. It was a long journey for me.

[0]. http://livingvipassana.blogspot.com/2010/02/bipolar-chronicl...

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#62

Post by Cthulhu_ »

golyi wrote: post #35

I believe a lot of people are doing meditation in a similar way as they would do a workout session and it simply doesn't work. It's supposed to be your time off and enjoyable. I've seen a lot of starters that are extremely focused on doing at least 30 mins a day, and it's just incredibly hard. Start small, start with whatever you're confortable with, it could be a minute for all it's worth and increase progressively…

Definitely, to the point where in addition to getting a stipend to go to the gym from a previous employer, they offered to pay for a mindfulness / meditation assistance app.

I mean they could also reduce the pressure to perform and to be on top of everything a bit. I get that enthusiasm is contagious and FOMO is a real problem in tech, but the company should have done more to slow people right the fuck down.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#63

Post by cyberpunk »

rolleiflex wrote: post #12

Since this is a long article, here’s a summary for fellow readers — it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-documented or under-reported due to the ‘hype’ of meditation as the 21st century cure-all. He talks about dissociative experiences (which is well documented in medical research), it being a pseudo-religion, and lastly, his belief that the extended use of medit…

These sorts of things have been dealt with for centuries by Buddhists, it’s a fairly common effect when you start with Zazen. This is why taking one part of the practice and abandoning the rest (most specifically, an experienced teacher) isn’t a great idea for everyone. Most of the time all you need to hear is “just let whatever comes up during Zazen go, and return to the moment” but alas, if you don’t things can go a bit wrong.

I don’t think it’s actively harmful, but the “mindfulness industry” is full of charlatans and poor advice, and it does make me rather sad that it’s being monetised in such a way.

Just sit.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#64

Post by littlethrowaway »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #46

> And I didn’t have a history of any major trauma prior to the retreat Yeah, right. > in 2009 I started a fist fight in a French Quarter bar … I broke a window with my fist, misplaced my shirt, and guzzled about 16 bottles of Miller High Life … > That … represented a constant battle I had waged over the prior decade with anger and other negative emotions. I drank too much. I occasionally smashed printers that jammed.…

Heh, a very similar thing happened to me actually, and while I agree about the fist-fight comment, I honestly didn't have any childhood trauma. Came from a loving, pretty privileged family, but I still went off the rails with a 10 day silent retreat!

It's extremely easy to dismiss people like this, but, have a care, there are real people on the other end of your dismissive comments.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#65

Post by mapcars »

addicted wrote: post #53
nabla9 wrote: post #26

(background: I have been doing zen meditation for 20 years. Several hours per day and participated in 50 intensive retreats or so). Absolutely. If you meditate so much that it starts to work, it's like any effective medicine or treatment. It has potential for adversarial side effects. Even mentally healthy people get into some crazy states and can experience meltdowns while meditating. I have seen several cases of pe…

This is key. Meditation is not a substitute for therapy or professional mental health of any sort.

This doesn't match my experience. Professionals can help you only to the extent they understand themselves. Do they understand nature of consciousness, mind, thought? Most likely they do not. Meditation is supposed to bring one to the state where you get control over those things and if it happens there is no question of mental issues for this person anymore.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#66

Post by eurasiantiger »

littlethrowaway wrote: post #64
eurasiantiger wrote: post #46

> And I didn’t have a history of any major trauma prior to the retreat Yeah, right. > in 2009 I started a fist fight in a French Quarter bar … I broke a window with my fist, misplaced my shirt, and guzzled about 16 bottles of Miller High Life … > That … represented a constant battle I had waged over the prior decade with anger and other negative emotions. I drank too much. I occasionally smashed printers that jammed.…

Heh, a very similar thing happened to me actually, and while I agree about the fist-fight comment, I honestly didn't have any childhood trauma. Came from a loving, pretty privileged family, but I still went off the rails with a 10 day silent retreat! It's extremely easy to dismiss people like this, but, have a care, there are real people on the other end of your dismissive comments.

Suggest you book an appointment with a professional to talk about your childhood and family dynamics. Everyone has a different sense of normal unless we compare.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#67

Post by icybox »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #60
mlang23 wrote: post #33

> This terrain was fresh. I had never previously experienced a psychotic episode and have no history of mental illness besides occasional bouts of mild anxiety and depression. ... > Why did I start meditating? The short answer is that in 2009 I started a fist fight in a French Quarter bar over some jambalaya, a steamy kiss, and a stray comment I didn’t take fondly. The evening ended hours later after I broke a window…

I agree with your conclusion. I'd go a step further and state there is no such thing as a bad trip. There are just situations where loss go of control can result in the surfacing of things that are unresolved... and unpleasant. No one has a bad trip without the latter. Another reason why psychedelics should come with clear warning labels that describe bad outcomes for specific situations.

I see your point, but I prefer to live in a free universe. We don't ban electricity or knives ... and both can do harm.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#68

Post by warent »

mlang23 wrote: post #33

> This terrain was fresh. I had never previously experienced a psychotic episode and have no history of mental illness besides occasional bouts of mild anxiety and depression. ... > Why did I start meditating? The short answer is that in 2009 I started a fist fight in a French Quarter bar over some jambalaya, a steamy kiss, and a stray comment I didn’t take fondly. The evening ended hours later after I broke a window…

My psychologist taught me that fear, anxiety, etc. destructive emotions are surface events, bubbling up from somewhere deeper. Mindfulness can be used as a resource for us to be with that fear; in the words of Thich Nhat Hanh "those painful emotions are like a child crying out. A child needs love and attention. Hold them with love, be with them."

Once we can be with it, then we can start to follow it down to its roots. Shining light into the darkness is how we heal.

Unfortunately the author seems to have gone astray down a false path that seems to be very common in western civilization called spiritual bypassing. Basically spiritual bypassing is when you use things like meditation and spirituality to get around your deep seated psychological wounds. Doing this is just a form of avoidance and repression which causes the wound to fester, which can eventually culminate in more severe symptoms like what the author describes.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#69

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

One item that i found intriguing is the research that negative experiences are more common than people think.

One must wonder, why this is not common knowledge? Also, are there causation links, or not?

My personal conclusion is that the sample is biased -- that is, some people seeking meditation are looking to self-medicate (subconsciously or not) on personal issues they wish to overcome.

It would seem that perhaps a non-trivial portion of meditation practitioners are ending up with worse outcomes than they started out.

One is left to wonder whether meditation practice should come with warning labels ( just like medication does for adverse effects)...

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#70

Post by shmageggy »

cyberpunk wrote: post #63
rolleiflex wrote: post #12

Since this is a long article, here’s a summary for fellow readers — it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-documented or under-reported due to the ‘hype’ of meditation as the 21st century cure-all. He talks about dissociative experiences (which is well documented in medical research), it being a pseudo-religion, and lastly, his belief that the extended use of medit…

These sorts of things have been dealt with for centuries by Buddhists, it’s a fairly common effect when you start with Zazen. This is why taking one part of the practice and abandoning the rest (most specifically, an experienced teacher) isn’t a great idea for everyone. Most of the time all you need to hear is “just let whatever comes up during Zazen go, and return to the moment” but alas, if you don’t things can go…

This is exactly the kind of inappropriate advice that the author is cautioning against. He was not just starting out, he had experienced teachers, and the horriffic panic-attack-like state he was not something that could have been addressed by "returning to the moment".
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