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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

danlawton.substack.com

331–340 of 600 posts

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had pretty much the same symptoms as this guy with zero meditation, just caffeine overdose. When I stopped drinking coffee and tea all symptoms, including dread and feeling that something is very wrong, muscle twitching and other odd feelings went away. And I didn't even drink that much by coffee drinkers standards.

Switched to decaf for the same reason.

Me too. Can now drink even 6 cups of decaf daily with no problems. And it tastes exactly as good.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#332

I interpret the author’s difficulties and frustration as a byproduct of a particular misapprehension of Buddhist teachings in modern society. Many modern-day practitioners, both in the east and the west, are under the impression that simply by mechanically practicing mindfulness meditation they will eventually reach a state of enlightenment. Unfortunately, this is a misunderstanding that the Buddha himself addressed…

Americans are in the habit of treating all goals as achievable in a systematic manner and to break down all obstacles into simply more things to learn and apply. With materialistic and worldly goals this works very well.

However by ignoring the soft needs of self in favor of the hard needs of ego, one applies the above methodology right up until their psyche falls apart because there's nothing left holding it together. The ouroboros runs out of tail to eat.

And Buddhist tenets, as understood by Westerners, don't help. Anatta, the doctrine of no-self, does not mean you can just ignore the needs of your psyche! It means your self is illusory, constantly changing. Illusions, have rules! They're durable, they don't just go away because you naively decided they don't matter anymore.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#333

I've practiced mindfulness and meditation for more than a decade. Mindfulness, as I've learned it, means being aware of your thoughts and feelings, introducing positive thoughts and feelings, and replacing negative thoughts and feelings. Meditation is also meant to be positive. You start with short sessions. The idea is to slow down and eventually stop your thoughts. From what I've heard, a lot people just fall aslee…

> replacing negative thoughts and feelings Really? That sounds like efforting. > The way that I've been taught meditation and mindfulness are that they should be positive practices that support your life. If they are making life worse, something is off with that teacher or meditation school. Um. This is not the accurate from vajrayana point of view and certainly didn't seem the case from the theravada school (when I…

I've studied Vajrayana, so it may vary per school.

Nothing wrong with self-effort from what I've been taught. The idea with mindfulness if that if you are just aware of your thoughts, but don't do anything, it's not that helpful. It's like if someone is in a gutter and is mindful about that, they are still in a gutter. That can help them want to make a change, since that experience is probably not very pleasant, but the point is to make a change.

The waking up process can bring up stuff, for sure, but the idea is to bring a positive mind the whole time. This is how you go through the stuff and don't just get stuck in it, you go through it.

As far as I understand, past thoughts and actions build up karma which is basically the path folks will head down, since at that point it becomes automatic. That is the default state of being for those people. If they just go with it and don't try to change, they will do more of the same.

Not everyone wants to get to the advanced stages of meditation, which can be intense. Some basic meditation and mindfulness can be used to improve peoples' lives though. Even just basic mindfulness, like what is taught by Chade-Meng Tan at Google, can be helpful. It all depends on what the individual wants. I'm not familiar with the Diamond Approach, but like I mentioned in my first comment, I think whatever people find that brings positive results in their lives is probably a good thing.

It's posts like the article where I feel like certain spiritual teachers and schools are doing something wrong, if it's leading to someone having such a serious break down. That person might have had underlying issues, but as far as I can tell, meditation is pretty safe. Going farther on the spiritual path can be intense, and it's not for everyone, but what you learn in the basic practice helps you along the way so that you don't lose it when you get to the more advanced stages of meditation.

You also mentioned non-duality which is a more advanced subject, i.e. looking at things as neither positive or negative. The way I've learned basic meditation and mindfulness is to try to think less, slow down your thoughts, be more aware of what you're thinking and feeling, and replace negative thoughts with positive thoughts. This is pretty safe for beginners and the basics lay down the framework for more advanced meditation. I think it's good to hold off on the advanced subjects until people have a solid basic practice, but to each their own.

I have found that there is some use in the beginning in terms of looking at things as positive or negative, so people can clean up their lives and minds, which allows for deeper practice as they progress. The end goal is to overcome all karma and go beyond good and bad, but I don't think people can be expected to do that right away, it takes practice. If people can even just think a little more positive, be more aware of everything that runs through their head, and maybe be a little less reactive with others, their lives will be better and likely their relationships, as well. That's probably pretty safe for the general public to try to do, if they want to. The more hardcore spiritual stuff is not for everyone (most people don't actually want it, they just want to feel a bit better, which is great, too).

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#334

Since this is a long article, here’s a summary for fellow readers — it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-documented or under-reported due to the ‘hype’ of meditation as the 21st century cure-all. He talks about dissociative experiences (which is well documented in medical research), it being a pseudo-religion, and lastly, his belief that the extended use of medit…

> it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-documented or under-reported Before this article, I didn't know meditation could have any adverse effect. Until today, I haven' read a single depiction, a single mention of meditation going wrong. Except in fictions. So this claim that one does not simply learn about the negative side effects of meditation sounds very plausi…

[deleted]

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#335
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've frequently seen "Buddhism" adopted by westerners from a secular or Judeo/Christian background and treated as though it's some sort of feel-good practice which lets them feel vaguely superior to other religions without any serious changes in beliefs or practices. I saw a well regarded movie recently where the main characterized Buddhism as "a philosophy rather than a religion" which made it clear that no Asians h…

I'm confused by this comment. Do you mean to say that Buddhists ought to engage in religious flame wars? FWIW, Buddhism is fairly centered on self-improvement, with idolatry being generally seen as respectful reverence, or at worst as lucky charms. I don't see the problem in taking just the teachings of a belief system while ignoring the idolatry aspect. In fact, some western takes on religion could use less idolatry…

"Buddhism is fairly centered on self-improvement"

That's one aspect central aspect of some types of Buddhism, but compassion is also central in many forms of Buddhism, particularly in the Bodhisattva traditions and teachings of the Mahayana branches of Buddhism, where the goal of self-improvement is sacrificed for the sake of easing the suffering of the rest of humanity.

Community (the Sangha and the lay people and every other sentient being) is also very important to many forms of Buddhism, and many Buddhists are socially active or at least engage in charitable works which are as much about helping others as anything else.

That's not to mention the selflessness and the giving up of attachment to goals like "self-improvement" at higher levels of Buddhist practice that is also emphasized in some forms of Buddhism.

"idolatry being generally seen as respectful reverence, or at worst as lucky charms"

There's lots of idolatry throughout the real practice of Buddhism around the world. Lay Buddhists in particular (on whom monastic Buddhists are so dependent, and without whom monastic Buddhism would would largely cease to exist) often pray to the Buddha for protection, luck, cures and wealth, and worship various gods and spirits. This is all Buddhism to them, and Buddhist monks are not free of such beliefs either.

In Tibetan Buddhism belief in gods and magic is widespread, as it is South East Asian Buddhism. Buddha is effectively treated as a god in Pure Land Buddhism, where he is prayed to for salvation and in hopes of being reborn in what is essentially paradise.

Claims that Buddhism as a whole is secular, atheist, not idolatrous, "scientific", etc, are not credible. Sure, some forms of Buddhism are (particularly the kinds that have been created for Western consumption), but many others aren't.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#336

I interpret the author’s difficulties and frustration as a byproduct of a particular misapprehension of Buddhist teachings in modern society. Many modern-day practitioners, both in the east and the west, are under the impression that simply by mechanically practicing mindfulness meditation they will eventually reach a state of enlightenment. Unfortunately, this is a misunderstanding that the Buddha himself addressed…

I've frequently seen "Buddhism" adopted by westerners from a secular or Judeo/Christian background and treated as though it's some sort of feel-good practice which lets them feel vaguely superior to other religions without any serious changes in beliefs or practices. I saw a well regarded movie recently where the main characterized Buddhism as "a philosophy rather than a religion" which made it clear that no Asians h…

Ugh, a WHITE american. They are the worst. Also, what is a racist like you doing in a thread about mindfulness?

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#337
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These sorts of things have been dealt with for centuries by Buddhists, it’s a fairly common effect when you start with Zazen. This is why taking one part of the practice and abandoning the rest (most specifically, an experienced teacher) isn’t a great idea for everyone. Most of the time all you need to hear is “just let whatever comes up during Zazen go, and return to the moment” but alas, if you don’t things can go…

One take I heard about yoga that kinda applies here is "if yoga is injuring you, your understanding of it is wrong" I think the underlying issue with all these asian-spiritualism-turned-western-nouveau-health is that western people sometimes come in wanting things to be intense, clinical and goal-oriented. But that's literally the opposite of what most of what these disciplines are all about. Asian health upkeep prac…

"western people sometimes come in wanting things to be intense, clinical and goal-oriented."

That describes me exactly. I spent forever look for a "quantified meditation" course.

I even kept a mediation journal where I could track how many times I lost track of my breath in a 5 minute session. I started out around 50 and was desperately trying to get to 0.

I even used an app that counts taps, that I would rest under my finger, so that I could mark each failure as quickly and easily as possible. Without trying to "remember" the count of failures because it would distract me from the breath.

I felt that if I could get to 0, that I wouldn't be ready for enlightenment, but I would at least achieve ACCESS CONCENTRATION and be able to enter the stream. At that point, it could become a spiritual practice, but I wanted to develop sufficient concentration abilities and conquer my ADHD before thinking too much about what mediation was actually for.

It's been really hard for me to let go of the idea that my meditation needs a score to track my progress.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#338

I also experienced something similar. While meditating at work I experienced a state of profound bliss and extreme bodily sensations. What followed this was a disintegration where I dropped into an existential crisis that lasted for about a year. However during this time I faced a number of demons which I hadn’t been able to face up until that point. Now, about 5 years later I am in a good place and am ramping up my…

If you are open to sharing, what did you do, if anything, to make it through the year of crisis? Did you stop meditating like the author, seek outside help, continue meditating or something else?

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#339

It sounds to me like the author had a severe anxiety attack for the first time. And just throwing out a wild guess that they possibly had recently experimented with ayahuasca or some other form of DMT.

it would be interesting to know this. and/or what other things he was involved with prior to his experience

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#340
I'll acknowledge some bias on my part as someone who has experienced more disassociative episodes (unrelated to meditation) than I care to have had but I think some of the replies here are very callous given how scarring I've found those experiences to be.

My first contact with mindfulness-based meditation was cognitive behavioural therapy through mental health professionals and haven't received any warnings to heed.

Seemingly, the author has had to endure their fair share and maybe a modicum of sympathy is warranted - at least.

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