iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe • Hacker News Board

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#551

Post by simondotau » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 11:53 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #182

icehawk wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which ARM computers where you installing arbitrary applications on? What flip phones? They were all locked down on the carrier side. You're still not installing arbitrary applications on game consoles even now that they're running x86. Stop speaking like that please.

What flip phones? They were all locked down on the carrier side. You seem to have missed the, admittedly brief, period where Java games on phones were extremely commonplace.

If you think they were "extremely commonplace", you were living in a mid-2000s tech bubble. At best they were kinda commonplace among a narrow set of people who gave a shit, knew it was possible, happened to have devices which supported these games, happened to have a revision of the device which wasn't locked down by the carrier, and who had the time and patience to tinker with such unusable junk.

If more than 1 percent of Java-capable handsets ever had third party software downloaded onto them post-purchase, I'd eat my hat.

I wonder if even 1 percent of iPhones manage to get used without ever having at least one app installed from the App Store.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#552

Post by latexr » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 11:53 AM UTC

webmobdev wrote: post #474

YeBanKo wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

App Privacy Report lets you know if an app might have leaked your data, firewall can help you make sure it does not happen. Two different purposes.

And enabling this also allows Apple to collect the data from you to "improve the service". So Apple will now have more data on you.

Do you have a source for the claim? Just checked the feature and the “Learn more…” text specifically says data is kept locally.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#553

Post by HopenHeyHi » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 11:54 AM UTC

76SlashDolphin wrote: post #350

vore wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your old phone was also eSIM compatible, you can just download the eSIM from your carrier like you would if you moved to any other phone.

But you would need to somehow get in touch with said carrier. Granted, you could probably do that over WiFi but if my phone breaks when, say, I'm out camping I'm SoL.

The associated esim app has free connectivity to complete the signup flow without wifi. It is obviously more convenient to download an app to your backup phone than futz around with physical sims you just have to remember to do so before you go camping.

Now you might retort aha! See! In a very narrow set of circumstances.. let me cut you off, look, you're going to need to remember to bring a paperclip or sim tool to do it the old fashioned way anyhow. So you're remembering something. If you're an amnesic lost in the woods you got bigger problems.

Besides, those are 2 grams of weight savings in my ultra light backpacking setup!

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#554

Post by hh3k0 » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 11:55 AM UTC

PlutoIsAPlanet wrote: post #405

hurtuvac78 wrote: post #250

Apple being motivated by improving security are BS, and it pains me te see people in this forum falling for it or reapeating this. There is a great tool to increase security: the browser and its sandbox. You don't need to install anything fishy on your phone, and the sandbox rights coukd be sufficient for many apps. But as an example, Apple denies the full screen feature for websites and even PWA... only installed on…

> And you cannot use a third party browser, since they forbid that (all are Safari based) I think this has turned out to be the current barrier in preventing Google from completing taking over the web standards space.

> I think this has turned out to be the current barrier in preventing Google from completing taking over the web standards space.

"I used the monopoly to destroy the monopoly."

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#555

Post by incongruity » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 11:55 AM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #444

mnd999 wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users don’t want crappy PWAs, they want something that follows the platform UI conventions. It’s good that Apple care enough about about UX to actually enforce this.

If they want it, download the app then. Allow others to not download it and use a PWA if they'd like. Actually I believe you're wrong: if people actually preferred Apple's way of doing it, Apple would have no reason to restrict other ways. They restrict it because people prefer the other way, and that would harm Apple's profits.

Well, for one, this isn’t just a two-party ecosystem. It’s not just the consumer and Apple. It’s also the app developers. App developers are largely the ones pushing things like PWA. Apple’s long-standing heavy handed take on design standards has always been driven by a focus on consumer/end-user experience and it has often been chafed against by developers and more technical types. For instance- Apple rightly refused to allow flash and Java apps on iOS devices and I think my user experience was the better for it.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#556

Post by simondotau » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 11:56 AM UTC

jeroenhd wrote: post #396

simondotau wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don’t buy an iPhone. I think it’s ridiculous that we are asking the government to save us from our own choices. As much as you and I don’t like it, what Apple is doing is perfectly legal. And as much as you or I might support a change in the law, you’re not going to get my support if the legislation is truly universal and not just a narrow-band targeting of a single company for developing an ecosystem which reso…

> Then don't buy an iPhone Then don't enable side loading. And what Apple is doing is actually not perfectly legal. That's the entire reason they're changing their policies. It's not like they enjoy having to compete with app stores that offer other payment providers or allow things like emulators.

I know how to not enable side-loading. There are a dozen friends and family members who I provide tech support to and I don't trust any of them to never follow the clearly written instructions which Epic will provide showing how to sideload Fortnite onto their phone.

Sure, maybe Epic can be trusted. But perhaps Meta decides that the latest/most desirable versions of Facebook, Instagram and WhatsApp have to be side-loaded. Now it's commonplace. Now everyone's phone has sideloaded apps installed.

Sure, maybe Meta can be trusted. But perhaps some new future TikTok-esque craze besets the mainstream, and it's in the form of a sideloaded app, made easy because sideloaded apps aren't unusual, and the company who makes this viral app is dodgy as f***.

But sure, it's always the user's choice.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#557

Post by Terretta » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 11:58 AM UTC

hurtuvac78 wrote: post #250

Apple being motivated by improving security are BS, and it pains me te see people in this forum falling for it or reapeating this. There is a great tool to increase security: the browser and its sandbox. You don't need to install anything fishy on your phone, and the sandbox rights coukd be sufficient for many apps. But as an example, Apple denies the full screen feature for websites and even PWA... only installed on…

A non-app-store web app on iPhone has been able to be full screen since initial release of Home Screen web apps. When you launch from Home Screen, it gets the whole screen.

See the Xbox Cloud Gaming "app" for instance, which is outside the App Store, just launch then "Add to Home Screen", close, and run from Home Screen.

https://www.xbox.com/en-us/play

As for what can be done with browsers, see the venerable iCab but also Kagi's Orion browser which runs Firefox and Chrome extensions, even on iOS. Yes, it's WebKit based, but so was Chrome for a long time.

https://help.kagi.com/orion/browser-extensions/macos-extensi...

Given you can run Xbox games or arbitrary extensions from other browsers, it's clear the web app and WebKit limits are less restrictive than most discussion acknowledges.

For the last few features that used to be missing, like notifications or other native hooks, notice Microsoft has the sidecar native app for iOS that handles in-game chat, LAN discovery for Xbox setup, and notifications.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#558

Post by Spivak » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 11:58 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #199

jpalomaki wrote: post #180

I think Apple has also done good things with their strict app store policies (from my consumer point of view). Apple has been for example putting limits on data collection and tracking. The main mechanism is to kick apps out from Apps store if they don't play by the rules. I'm worried that side loading will be a step back here. Strong players, like Facebook, may just take their app away from the official store and di…

Defenders of Apple's policies always say you can just use other tech if you don't agree with them. The same principle applies here. If an app requires you to use a third party app store and you don't like it then choose another app. If you feel compelled to use a product with policies you don't agree with then now you understand how many of us feel about iOS.

But there's no push, you can literally ignore Apple's existence and use none of their products and you'll have no care in the world. Apple's network effect is basically zero. There's always one Android user in the friend group that spoils iMessage and FaceTime so we have to use something else anyway.

If you mean you feel compelled to sell in their store which requires a laptop, a business relationship with Apple, and realistically a phone because emulator only sucks then that's a business decision if the juice is worth the squeeze.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#559

Post by Reason077 » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 11:59 AM UTC

reustle wrote: post #441

kaba0 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s good about physical SIMs? I do like apple for daring to improve the status quo there, so I want my European Edition with only e-simsz

If you travel to more than 1 or 2 countries per year, especially less developed countries, you'll learn that your life (connection) depends on picking up cheap $5-15 sim cards at the border for each country. I couldn't imagine them jumping on the esim train in any useful way in the near term.

In theory, eSIMs actually make life easier in that scenario.

Easier to get online in a new country if you don’t have to first seek out a physical SIM card. Plus you keep your home SIM secure in the phone where there’s no danger of losing it.

Instead, just get on WiFi when you arrive, take your pick of cheap offers, and download the eSIM directly to your phone.

> ”I couldn't imagine them jumping on the esim train in any useful way in the near term.”

Depends on the country. Thailand, for example, is very eSIM friendly. But there’s plenty of “developed” countries in Europe where eSIMs are almost unheard of.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#560

Post by tormeh » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 11:59 AM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #473

matsemann wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they want it, download the app then. Allow others to not download it and use a PWA if they'd like. Actually I believe you're wrong: if people actually preferred Apple's way of doing it, Apple would have no reason to restrict other ways. They restrict it because people prefer the other way, and that would harm Apple's profits.

They continue to restrict it because look at how much trash was (is?) on the Android store; they restricted it even more in the early days because of the torrent of low effort fart / gag apps.

The iOS app store has way more trash than the Android one. Android has lots of open source software. iOS has a bajillion crappy $2 apps instead. I got an iPad from work, and not only does it not have a calculator from Apple, it's really hard to find a lightweight, low-permission, ad-free calculator on the App Store. I eventually had to settle for one designed for iPhones.