Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

techradar.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 1001 posts

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#181

Post by wvenable »

hooby wrote: post #143

I think the central question here is: .) whether you buy a phone as a piece of hardware and then own that hardware - which gives you certain rights regarding the usage of that owned hardware or .) whether you are just paying some sort of admission fee to a tightly controlled service, and are basically "lent" a piece of hardware that you have no ownership rights over. All the other stuff about walled gardens, monopoli…

The hardware and software, in any device, should not be so inextricably linked as to prevent the hardware from working at all without the software. Regardless of whether we are taking about iPhones, computers, cars, or farm equipment.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#182

Post by userbinator »

icehawk wrote: post #114
eimrine wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Which ARM computers where you installing arbitrary applications on? What flip phones? They were all locked down on the carrier side. You're still not installing arbitrary applications on game consoles even now that they're running x86. Stop speaking like that please.

What flip phones? They were all locked down on the carrier side.

You seem to have missed the, admittedly brief, period where Java games on phones were extremely commonplace.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#183

Post by chenzhekl »

wvenable wrote: post #181
hooby wrote: post #143

I think the central question here is: .) whether you buy a phone as a piece of hardware and then own that hardware - which gives you certain rights regarding the usage of that owned hardware or .) whether you are just paying some sort of admission fee to a tightly controlled service, and are basically "lent" a piece of hardware that you have no ownership rights over. All the other stuff about walled gardens, monopoli…

The hardware and software, in any device, should not be so inextricably linked as to prevent the hardware from working at all without the software. Regardless of whether we are taking about iPhones, computers, cars, or farm equipment.

But it is way too hard to cleanly separate the hardware from the software without introducing extra complexity and security issues.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#184

Post by vladvasiliu »

onion2k wrote: post #155
otterley wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The migration process is, you ask your carrier for a new eSIM. They send you one via QR code. That's pretty much it.

Dealing with the carrier is usually the worst part of owning a phone. Asking for a new esim is likely to send you down a path of navigating a process where they try to sell you an upgrade, or they send you a QR code that doesn't work, or a million other possible problems.

> Dealing with the carrier is usually the worst part of owning a phone.

It's probably intentional. I was reading an article in the French press the other day [0] on the subject. Some head of something or other in the industry said they were weary of mostly Apple, Samsung, and Google starting to like playing the providers and removing the actual carriers from the users' psyche. "The SIM card is the last physical link between the carrier and the client".

I've also checked my carrier's site for getting an esim. Apparently I'd have to pay the same amount to get one as for a physical one (minus delivery costs). But at least, contrary to some other commenters' situation, they seem to allow you to move it from phone to phone as long as you hold on to your qr code. They, of course, don't offer the option of storing it in the "secure" client area.

[0] https://www.lefigaro.fr/secteur/high-tech/avec-l-esim-la-car...

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#185

Post by atoav »

hayst4ck wrote: post #175
hooby wrote: post #143

I think the central question here is: .) whether you buy a phone as a piece of hardware and then own that hardware - which gives you certain rights regarding the usage of that owned hardware or .) whether you are just paying some sort of admission fee to a tightly controlled service, and are basically "lent" a piece of hardware that you have no ownership rights over. All the other stuff about walled gardens, monopoli…

While that might be the choice we're making and it seems like the first is obviously what owning a device should be like. What if I actually want to pay a fee to a tightly controlled service? Like what if I do the math and determine that that benefits me more than actually owning the device? Should a regulatory agency be able to come in and tell this tightly controlled service they aren't doing it right when I am a h…

> What if I actually want to pay a fee to a tightly controlled service? Like what if I do the math and determine that that benefits me more than actually owning the device? Should a regulatory agency be able to come in and tell this tightly controlled service they aren't doing it right when I am a happy customer?

I think the default should be protection. Just like it is okay for a BDSM-scene to exist where people inflict consensual pain onto each other — the default must still be to protect the individual's right to bodily autonomy and protection from harm — even if some people, sometimes opt to waiver these rights

Signing away those rights should always remain a special case and not the default. Same for ownership rights, because if the only choice is leasing, ownership ceases to exist. While when ownership exists you could still easily enter a lease.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#186

Post by geocar »

supertrope wrote: post #132
geocar wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better: it’s a menu option. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780 eSIMs also have the advantage of an activation card can be sent instantly from almost anywhere (it’s a QR code) which is great if your phone (and physical sim) are lost or damaged.

In theory eSIM allows for self service without going to a store or waiting for shipping. In practice you might be on hold with your phone company for an hour. Some USA MVNOs don’t support eSIM.

Sounds terrible. Here in socialist Europe it is exactly as easy as I just made it sound.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#187

Post by wvenable »

rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #163
hooby wrote: post #143

I think the central question here is: .) whether you buy a phone as a piece of hardware and then own that hardware - which gives you certain rights regarding the usage of that owned hardware or .) whether you are just paying some sort of admission fee to a tightly controlled service, and are basically "lent" a piece of hardware that you have no ownership rights over. All the other stuff about walled gardens, monopoli…

Yes. The HN crowd is overcomplicating the issue, and Apple has as much a right as an individual to design their platform as they wish. We like to talk about giving businesses the freedom to build the products that they want and keeping regulators out of the picture and instead letting people vote with their money, yet when people actually vote with their money to buy Apple products precisely for how they are built, w…

I see no moral issue with government regulation to make our lives better.

People would still buy cars if seatbelts weren't a standard feature. They'd still by deodorant if it put holes in the ozone.

Vote with their money only works if companies make a product you can buy. Where's the iPhone "unlocked edition" that costs $20 more that I can buy? They don't make it.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#189

Post by wvenable »

chenzhekl wrote: post #183
wvenable wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hardware and software, in any device, should not be so inextricably linked as to prevent the hardware from working at all without the software. Regardless of whether we are taking about iPhones, computers, cars, or farm equipment.

But it is way too hard to cleanly separate the hardware from the software without introducing extra complexity and security issues.

How so? The iPhone is literally just a computer and the vast majority of computers are cleanly separate from their software.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#190

Post by josephcsible »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #108
josephcsible wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there will be no legal need for Apple to allow it here. The point is that since Apple had to do the work to allow sideloading at all, most if not all of the lies they came up with for why they can't allow it for everyone won't work anymore.

I don’t believe they ever claimed that it was not possible. The position has always been that it is a compromise in security controls. The counter position to that has never been that it is not a compromise in security controls. I only hope they continue to sell devices that don’t allow it, because that’s what I would choose every time, unless that choice is taken away from me.

Why do you think it's ever better to have a device that doesn't ever allow sideloading apps, over one that lets you, the owner, decide whether or not to allow sideloading apps?
Post reply on HN