Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates • Hacker News Board

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#551

Post by spookthesunset » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 8:35 PM UTC

srcreigh wrote: post #257

ifyoubuildit wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is so amazing to me how many people don't seem to recognize this. My (somewhat baseless) speculation on this is that a lot of the people in forums like HN are early adopter types who mostly work from home, and so were able to avoid exposure and got the vaccine relatively early. From this standpoint, I could see it being harder to empathize with folks who were exposed in everyday life (it's just a simple jab, I did…

Encouraging natural immunity is asking for hospitals to get filled up by people giving themselves covid on purpose. This affects non covid patients too. I suspect that's why the media doesn't do it.

> Encouraging natural immunity is asking for hospitals to get filled up by people giving themselves covid on purpose. This affects non covid patients too.

So uh, what is that.... 0.01% of the entire population? Less? Yes, some people will cheat the system but people cheat all systems all the time. That's just life.

Most people will do the right thing. We cannot build a society around 0.01% of us who cheat.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#552

Post by cma » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 8:37 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #486

skillpass wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - I am worried about taking hospital capacity claims at face value though. From what I've seen, it was common for hospitals to report being overwhelmed even during flu seasons pre-covid. I wouldn't classify that level of 'overwhelmed' worthy of mandates upon society. I don't doubt that during these periods of time hospital resources are strained in some way, but there's a difference between this routine level…

The thing they don't always mention is that hospital capacity is always close to being overwhelmed, by design, because otherwise you're sitting around with a large amount of extraordinarily expensive idle hospital capacity. A small change is enough to go from "almost full" to "over capacity." The seemingly obvious thing to do would be to build some temporary capacity specifically for COVID patients. We've had quite a…

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Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#553

Post by spookthesunset » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 8:37 PM UTC

webdood90 wrote: post #241

someguy5344523 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it looks like the vaccines don't stop the spread of covid: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/

The point is to reduce critical cases that cause hospital visits. Our system is overwhelmed as is. The fact that this still needs to be explained 2 years into this is ridiculous.

> Our system is overwhelmed as is.

I have yet to see proof that most of the system is "overwhelmed". Sure there are hotspots here and there but this idea that the system is on the brink of collapse is hyperbole. And even if it is true, these dudes had 2 years of our time to figure out how to deal with it. 2 years of our short lives we've given so they could fix this capacity issue. Where is the results? Why is it the general public's fault at this point?

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#554

Post by jatone » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 8:37 PM UTC

jokethrowaway wrote: post #532

e40 wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate this casting of the issue as "freedom". It's absurd. My "freedom" to live because I have a medical issue but cannot get treatment will be severely impacted if hospitals are overrun with patients and worn out workers. See, we can both play the "freedom" game.

Your example is a transaction between people (the doctor and you). You don't have a right to that transaction. The other party can withdraw for whatever reason (including not having time). The freedom to roam is freedom. I understand the point you're trying to make, but the parent comment is correct in the usage of the world freedom, whether you like it or not.

no its not, you can't roam into another's house. another's place of business. or a government building without following the rules of said environment.

nor do mask or vax mandates limit this concept of 'roaming' in any way.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#555

Post by spookthesunset » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 8:40 PM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #444

scarmig wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something can be endemic and deadly and still something we accept the consequences of without government imposed restrictions. For example: HIV is something that is now endemic and (still) deadly. And yet we don't go around forcibly shutting down gay bathhouses, bars, and Grindr and implementing condom and prep mandates, even though they would be effective at reducing its spread. And for good reason: it'd be a massiv…

I don't have to worry about getting HIV every time I go out in public just because some jerk decided he has a god-given right to breathe viral particles into my lungs even though a simple and safe vaccine is readily available.

If you are so worried about covid... don't go outside. Or if you do, triple mask and wear a face shield. I don't care. Just don't force me into taking measures to make you less fearful--that's pretty selfish.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#556

Post by azakai » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 8:41 PM UTC

spookthesunset wrote: post #547

Nbox9 wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d like to know that if I have a heart attack or get hit by a bus then I’ll have access to top quality healthcare —- not burnt out understaffed hospitals. Sharing limited resources is a major role of the government, and managing hospital capacity seems to fall under “promote general welfare” to me. My $0.02

Okay, then instead of punishing the general public, how about they go build more capacity? They've had 2 years at this point and they are still freaking out about "overflowing hospitals". It's not fair, ethical or moral to push mandates on citizens at this point.

It takes a long time to train doctors and nurses and other relevant staff. Worse, the hard working conditions those people have been enduring since 2020 has led to a lot of burnout and attrition.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#557

Post by ggy5567 » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 8:41 PM UTC

lambdaba wrote: post #334

tarboreus wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP. They work, but much more marginally and situationally than most people think. They're best thought of as a delaying factor in exposure, with cloth masks adding no or a few minutes and surgical masks adding somewhat more time. In many situations, this is irrelevant, because you're stuck with the group and the air for far longer than the mask differential affords. I'd say the optimal places for wearing masks ar…

If I'm not mistaken, these claims stem from studies modelling droplet diffusion, obviously no experiment could pass ethics for an actual infection exposure. I guess to each their own, but I am highly skeptical of the value of these kind of studies, also covid is aerosolized so why are we worrying about droplets again?

> covid is aerosolized so why are we worrying about droplets again?

Becasue we don't want sick people spitting all over the place when they talk, even when we aren't inhaling their breath.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#558

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 8:41 PM UTC

tynpeddler wrote: post #272

tzs wrote: post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

The vaxxed and unvaxxed populations both rely on the same medical infrastructure. So when the unvaxxed fill hospitals to recover or die, they are consuming scarce resources that are required by the population at large for other things like birth, cancer, surgery, etc. Sadly, we don't have an ethical way to let all the unvaxxed get covid without impacting the medical system negatively for the rest of us.

[deleted]

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#559

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 8:42 PM UTC

donohoe wrote: post #239

quaffapint wrote: post #66

I'm vaccinated and boostered by my own choice. My problem with mandates is where does it end? Why this mandate and not other mandates? Who gets to decide that?

I'm vaccinated and boostered by my own choice Great! The problem is that vaccines don't protect society unless a critical-mass of people are vaccinated. The estimate for COVID-19 is that roughly 70% to 85% of the population will need to be vaccinated to reach the herd immunity threshold. USA is at about 63% fully vaccinated (76% had at least one dose). where does it end? It ends when the the threat subsides. Why this…

[deleted]

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#560

Post by app_gorilla » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 8:45 PM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #484

app_gorilla wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

vaccinated people are much less likely to get infected on exposure? With Omicron, vaccinated people are MORE likely to get infected, 90 days post-vaccine. Source: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v...

Yeah, more likely to get infected on exposure than an unvaccinated person that has not previously had the disease. The source link supports that claim as far as I can tell from what's on that page and doesn't say anything about vaccinated people being more likely to get infected vs. unvaccinated (both without natural immunity).

The study excluded previously PCR-positive individuals in both vaccinated and unvaccinated groups. So it's vaccinated and no prior exposure and unvaccinated and no prior exposure.

The infection rate 60 days post-vaccination were higher in the vaccine group.