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Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

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Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#541

Post by nodamage »

modeless wrote: post #476
nodamage wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I certainly agree that Epic needs a strong case in order to win, it's not clear that their actions with regards to Fortnite actually help their legal case so much as their public relations . In any case it seems like the goalposts have been moved from "Epic needs to establish standing" to "Epic needs a strong case". My point was only to correct the former misconception which for some reason has been incorrectly…

Maybe they don't need consumer harm for their one per se claim, but what about the other 9 claims? They need it for more than just PR reasons. I don't know if standing is considered separately per claim, but if not then it's an issue of terminology, not substance. Feel free to substitute the appropriate legal terminology for the ability to bring a claim.

To clarify, in order for Epic to bring a claim it needs to show that it has personally been harmed. In order for Epic to win the claim it will need to prove that competition has been harmed.

Standing needs to be established separately for each claim, yes, but I expect in this case the $300 million in fees takes care of that across the board.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#542

Post by lawtalkinghuman »

throwawaynothx wrote: post #520
jariel wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Does every developer out there think 30% commission on paid apps is tyranny?" Combined with the ambiguity, lack of choice, threats to business - absolutely yes, iOS is basically universally reviled by developers. Nobody on this planet accepts that the 30% is necessary for anything ergo, it's a massive chunk out of profits. Most companies are not hugely profitable. In many cases, Apple is making considerable more pro…

Not to mention you require an apple machine to compile code for IOS (or rent a service that will compile it for you) - Also you need to PAY for a developer ID. Their business model is munted. All because people are sheep. They advertised to moronic uni students who like shiny things, Their parents wanted to seem hip so they got on board. I mean hell, you cant even use a cable they don't own.

Yeah, much easier to dismiss iOS users as fashion-conscious shiny-obsessed sheep rather than maybe talk to some iOS users and understand what exactly they prefer about the platform they use.

Because I rather like the fact the iOS devices get OS updates for about twice as long as Android devices. Android security was also a pretty bad joke for a very long time—it has started to change, but there's only so much they can fix. Google would release an OS (or even a security) update, then you'd have to wait for both the OEM and the network provider to pass the update on to end users. Google are changing this with security patches, but there's still a lot of Android devices running old versions with no prospect of any new features coming any time soon.

In iOS land, there's no OEM or network intermediaries (something Apple insisted on in all deals with networks from the first iPhone), so generally takeup of a new iOS version happens really promptly - as of June 2020, 81% of iOS users are on iOS 13.* That's good for the health of the platform as app developers can build on top of new OS features knowing a reasonable number of actual users can use those new features.

Also, there are a whole variety of suppliers of Lightning cables. Go to Amazon and search "MFi certified lightning cable".

* https://www.statista.com/statistics/565270/apple-devices-ios...

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#543

Post by yyyk »

dmitriid wrote: post #317
paulpan wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Epic absolutely needs other major game studios, and major software companies, to join in their protest to effect the desired change. Interesting point about the looming iOS14 update. Makes you wonder whether Apple will ultimately fall at their privacy sword, similar to how Google fell at its own "Don't do evil" motto. E.g. it's meaningless bravado when not applied to universally to all countries, aka China.

> I think Epic absolutely needs other major game studios, and major software companies, to join in their protest to effect the desired change. Would Epic be willing to lead the fight against consoles as well (they charge 30%, too)? Oh, right...

Epic can't afford to sue every store, even if it wanted to. Nor would this be legally helpful for anyone - it would just enrich the lawyers. It makes sense to have a main case to test the legal doctrine.

Apple is by far the most distinct case, so it perfectly reasonable to focus on Apple (Besides, I'm sure that Apple with its trillions can afford a legal defence). If Apple gets off, all other stores get off too since Apple is the most restrictive. If Epic wins, we can then discuss how to apply the legal doctrine to other cases.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#545

Post by mhh__ »

subsection1h wrote: post #464
lolsal wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Epic caused their own pain here, sure but What other way can we actually get a semi open platform that we're not being taxed on? As an Apple user, the whole point here is that it's not an open system. I just can't get riled up over a developer not following the rules of a platform. I use Apple because the Apple ecosystem is valuable to me - the store, the SSO, the Apple ID, the UI/UX, the hardware - all of it. I do…

Hacker News in 2020: Where "hackers" prefer closed systems and perceive no value in developers who don't want to "play nice" with closed systems.

How else am I supposed to mention how many thousands of dollars of apple gear I've got!?

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#546

Post by yyyk »

ribosometronome wrote: post #454
curryst wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some public good in selling consoles as loss leaders; it allows disadvantaged people to participate. Video games are becoming a big part of our culture, and it sucks that participating in that culture requires spending a bunch of money on hardware every generation. I also think there are more substantial differences. The most major being the difficulty in switching. Switching consoles means losing my data mo…

>Switching consoles means losing my data most of the time, but they're just save games, achievements and friends list And an inability to play every game you've purchased. Even if you didn't buy the games digitally, it'd be amazingly difficult to resell your games to buy the same ones for a different platform. Heck, just look at all the groaning online about Epic store exclusive games because people didn't want to ha…

>And an inability to play every game you've purchased

Emulators exists (unlike Apple which bans any virtualization of MacOS under non-macs).

>it'd be amazingly difficult to resell your games to buy the same ones for a different platform

Selling is easy. 'Buying the same game' is often a nonfactor due to how the games market works (many games become outdated quickly, multiplayer servers go offline, etc.).

>>Is it okay to have a closed marketplace on your own software if that marketplace only serves your software?

>Similarly, why should only Epic be able to sell skins for Fortnite?

There's no duty to have a open marketplace, that is open to 3rd parties. Not having it is no different than offering different paid versions of the main software (imagine Fortnite Premium Edition with X skins, or iPhone only with Apple apps). However, once the marketplace is open to 3rd parties, there's a duty to allow fair competition, and that does limit Apple.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#547

Post by friendlybus »

ghosty141 wrote: post #525
zanecraw wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I like Apple's products, I do have to agree with you that they need to get off their high horse. It's insane how much power they have and they use it to rip off companies that even challenge them one bit.

Remember that we the customers GAVE them that power. They are allowed to do whatever they want with it. People here complain that they have so much power while wearing an apple watch...

I don't see Apple watch buyers signing up for implicit monopoly practices (or whatever epic's case is) because they wanted a shiny thing they saw in an ad.

I didn't sign up for coke's anti-union movements in south america because I like fizzy sugar water.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#548

Post by chrisandchris »

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #312
reaperducer wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business It’s the hazards of building your business on another company’s foundation. There are millions of companies completely dependent on Apple, Amazon, or another organization. In tech terms, it goes back to affiliate marketing days. In real world terms, it goes back centuries. No leader should make his company dependent on another company, but it happens all t…

> It’s the hazards of building your business on another company’s foundation. This is one of those mindkill kind of lines someone posts in all such threads. Yes, everything in the world depends on something else. Do you also say this when companies rely on utility companies for their electricity and water? Or must I buy an island and set things up from scratch before I am allowed to start a lemonade stand? Or maybe m…

At least in my country, water and power are utilites and provided by the government or companies acting on behalf of the government. As long as I pay the bills, water and power can‘t be taken away from myself. I also myself make the rules for retrieving (which is callew law) power and water through election and vote.

An Apple login is handled by Apple. If they don‘t want to do business with you anymore, you‘re lost. They make the rules themself, there is basically not much you can do to appeal those rules directly. I can‘t do anything (well, court, but until then I‘m bankrupt) about it.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#549

Post by user5994461 »

vincnetas wrote: post #334
kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s the hazards of building your business on another company’s foundation. This is one of those mindkill kind of lines someone posts in all such threads. Yes, everything in the world depends on something else. Do you also say this when companies rely on utility companies for their electricity and water? Or must I buy an island and set things up from scratch before I am allowed to start a lemonade stand? Or maybe m…

You can get identical electricity from different provider. You cant get identical platform from not apple.

No you can't, there is only one supplier for water and one for electricity. (Not in the US where it's privatized but that is US specific).

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#550

Post by user5994461 »

ffpip wrote: post #156
Animats wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We're sorry that you were unable to log in with Apple. Here's a discount offer on an HTC U-series phone! And we'll throw in five new Fortnite skins!"

They got every single kid to enable 2FA on Epic Accounts by giving a free skin. My brother even asked me 'how to 2FA?'

They did that in order to collect the phone number from the kid?

edit: Their 2FA can do either SMS or email so that's a yes.

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