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Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

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Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#401

Post by greycol »

m3kw9 wrote: post #289
hienyimba wrote: post #55

A petty move like this clearly shows that Apple as a company has nothing valuable to offer developers. Shutting down "sign in" options shows that internally, Apple is looking for a way to hurt Epic in a manner that hurts the most but they are coming up short. Although iOS accounts for over one-thirds of Fortnite's 360million users, Epic has already made the brave decision to let that portion of revenue go and nothing…

Correction: nothing to offer to developers that breaks the terms in such purposeful way. Completely premeditated move from Epic deserve exactly what Epic expects

I agree, it's just like when I put in a contract with my employees that they're not allowed to talk about their salaries. If they talk about their salaries then boom! Fired!

Or when I put in the contract tips go straight to the business. You don't put your tips in at the end of the night, Boom! Fired!

You can't expect me to keep you employed if you don't follow the contract.

Hell I've even had some of them come up to me and say those terms are illegal but I put in the contract that you can't complain about the conract, so... Boom! Fired! They knew they would be so why are they even complaining, idiots?

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#402

Post by snyp »

I don’t think what epic says here is entirely true. Apple said that they were going to remove / revoke Epic’S developer account which would probably revoke the certificates for Sign In with Apple as a result Apple would have emailed them about it. I think epic is just spinning it to suit their narrative. You wouldn’t want apps on the App Store with expired certificates to be able to use login and registration systems.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#403

Post by anoncake »

ribosometronome wrote: post #234
asddubs wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think companies would adapt. And the 3ds has novel enough hardware that you couldn't just replace it with a phone/laptop/whatever. Consoles could also still work out exclusivity deals with publishers, and have a marketplace that is screened, they'd just also need a way to sideload apps.

Consoles that have had easy access to that have historically not done well.

Against locked-down ones. Which is why those need to be banned.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#404

Post by curryst »

ribosometronome wrote: post #233
danShumway wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And again, I'm sympathetic to that argument. But then don't argue that the iPhone is exactly the same. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that Apple would stop producing the iPhone if sideloading was allowed. The smartphone market doesn't operate the same way as the console market.

The comparison is the they are both devices that limit installation of software. They're rather similar in that regard. I'm not sure that "This product can only exist if you allow us to have a monopoly" is justification for allowing a monopoly when it comes to video games consoles.

There is some public good in selling consoles as loss leaders; it allows disadvantaged people to participate. Video games are becoming a big part of our culture, and it sucks that participating in that culture requires spending a bunch of money on hardware every generation.

I also think there are more substantial differences. The most major being the difficulty in switching. Switching consoles means losing my data most of the time, but they're just save games, achievements and friends list. If my console melted down tomorrow, it'd be fine. Switching phone OS is a lot harder. Contacts and calendars are relatively easy to switch, but it gets hard after that. How do I get all my data off the old phone? Am I sure I exported my 2FA keys right? If my phone melts down and takes the cloud backups with it, my life is in a world of hurt.

I am also curious how first-party software will be handled. Is it okay to have a closed marketplace on your own software if that marketplace only serves your software? Just as an example, if I get an LG smart fridge that has a marketplace to download new widgets for the display, and LG only allows the sale of LG apps there, is that okay? I'm wondering if app stores won't just shift their model. Instead of "you upload an app, and we'll pay you what users pay us for it minus our cut" it will become "You grant us a perpetual license to distribute your application, and we will pay you 70% royalties on the money we earn". I wonder if that shifts any liability around

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#406

Post by dilap »

tomp wrote: post #344
schmichael wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish Mozilla would join them by publishing a Firefox for iOS with their own renderer and Javascript (which they have been prevented from doing). Get booted and join the lawsuit. That's the activist Mozilla I can get behind.

How is Mozilla to do that? AFAIK Epic did their move by pushing "legal" iOS code, then doing an over-the-air update of adding non-Apple payment system. Mozilla can't just push a rendering & JavaScript engine "over the air".

Can't they? Is app review actually disassembling the code to see what capabilities it has?

Just include both native renderer and webkit, and over the air switch which you use.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#407

Post by nodamage »

cavanasm wrote: post #220
mythz wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is untrue. Their harm was of their own making which was why the Judge dismissed their injunction: > The Court finds that with respect to Epic Games’ motion as to its games, including Fortnite, Epic Games has not yet demonstrated irreparable harm. The current predicament appears of its own making. Epic strategically chose to breach its agreements with Apple How can purposefully violating someone's contract be a p…

There hasn't been a hearing on an injunction yet, that happens later this month. The hearing that HAS happened was on a temporary restraining order, which was to keep Apple from doing anything UNTIL AFTER the injunction hearing. The difference is important, the temporary restraining order's effects are only limited to that August-September time window, and the hearing itself had limited argument, and very little prep…

> Part of Epic's legal team's arguments was that there is binding legal precedent that "self inflicted harm" was not disqualifying of any of their claims in an anti-trust suit due to the standing hurdle

I think you've misunderstood this part of the hearing. The cases they attempted to cite said that the doctrine of "unclean hands" is not a valid defense in an antitrust claim. It's unrelated to standing or whether their injury was self-inflicted for purposes of the TRO and the judge said in her ruling that it wasn't relevant to her analysis. [1]

> a similar anti-trust suit filed by an Apple user was thrown out without a trial on grounds that the customer was not able to sufficiently demonstrate Apple's practices harmed them

If you are referring to Apple v. Pepper note that this ruling was reversed by the Supreme Court and the case is still ongoing. [2]

[1] https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.364265... (Footnote on Page 5)

[2] https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/18pdf/17-204_bq7d.pdf

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#408

Post by dimmke »

dilap wrote: post #406
tomp wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Mozilla to do that? AFAIK Epic did their move by pushing "legal" iOS code, then doing an over-the-air update of adding non-Apple payment system. Mozilla can't just push a rendering & JavaScript engine "over the air".

Can't they? Is app review actually disassembling the code to see what capabilities it has? Just include both native renderer and webkit, and over the air switch which you use.

It’d get picked up by binary scanning tools. “Why did your ipa triple in size?”

Plus I doubt Mozilla is in the mode to burn months of programmers time on a stunt right now.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#409

Post by DonaldPShimoda »

wayneftw wrote: post #263
DonaldPShimoda wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that a billion-dollar company is practically necessary to fight Apple on issues like this. What I don't like, though, is that Epic are trying to portray themselves as the little guy fighting for the users' rights throughout all this, as seen in the "Nineteen Eighty-Fortnite" ad. They're being dishonest in their self-image, and that taints my perception of them because I wonder what else they're being…

They are relatively smaller and if they win this fight, all the little guys that are rooting for them will win as well. Here's a visualization so you can see how much smaller a billion is than a trillion - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAoK38U8gDU

I mean, I understand that. My issue is that it feels like Epic is being dishonest. Their motives are clearly self-interested: they want the ability to run their own Epic Store so they can secure more profits than going through Apple. So when they try to act like they're the little guy fighting for what's in people's best interests — that leaves a sour taste in my mouth, regardless of whether the outcome is for the best.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#410

Post by rootsudo »

bryan_w wrote: post #364
fxtentacle wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but think that the whole thing is playing out exactly like Epic had hoped. After Apple kicked Fortnite from the iOS store, there was an outcry of people who had previously spent money on it through Apple's in-app purchases and now wanted a refund. Some of those users switched to playing Fortnite on a laptop or Android phone instead, but of course they were still using Sign in with Apple if they had origi…

>Epic now has a very good reason to collect a working email address from every past iOS customer Not just epic but any business really that obtains most of their customer base through sign in with apple. Losing your entire customer base because of making apple mad is a risk that most businesses will now be unwilling to take.

Does using Apple Sign in not share your email address/identity?
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