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Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

macrumors.com

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Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#341

Post by DennisAleynikov »

dmitriid wrote: post #317
paulpan wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Epic absolutely needs other major game studios, and major software companies, to join in their protest to effect the desired change. Interesting point about the looming iOS14 update. Makes you wonder whether Apple will ultimately fall at their privacy sword, similar to how Google fell at its own "Don't do evil" motto. E.g. it's meaningless bravado when not applied to universally to all countries, aka China.

> I think Epic absolutely needs other major game studios, and major software companies, to join in their protest to effect the desired change. Would Epic be willing to lead the fight against consoles as well (they charge 30%, too)? Oh, right...

oh man people assume they aren't fighting the consoles clearly have not read the lawsuits themselves

epic is proposing a 12% rate to all the stores and asked Google for it as well, they have fought playstation policies against crossplay and won in the past.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#342

Post by ProfessorLayton »

fxtentacle wrote: post #211
jmpman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

I'm pretty sure you didn't know that, but Xbox doesn't have any restrictions on tools and payment methods. You can literally just download their SDK, build a game, and monetize it however you want. In other words, Xbox is already more open than iOS. I believe they opened it up with the Xbox 360 around 2007. https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers#developerprograms

I've worked on a top free cross-platform game for Xbox One and our experience was absolutely not "build a game, and monetize it however you want."

It took months of back and forth and the Xbox team had plenty of input from UX, to monetization, particularly when it came to users buying stuff on other platforms and using them on Xbox.

Sure, MS let us do what Sony and Nintendo would not, so I guess they're the most "open", but make no mistake, it's Microsoft's platform.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#343

Post by lexusgx »

My gut reaction: it is a win to put the brakes on a virtual currency shop disguised as a video game. Perhaps this is something that needs legislative action. Addictive behaviors that turn people into paypigs for a minimally productive business are harmful.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#344

Post by tomp »

schmichael wrote: post #275
paulpan wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Epic absolutely needs other major game studios, and major software companies, to join in their protest to effect the desired change. Interesting point about the looming iOS14 update. Makes you wonder whether Apple will ultimately fall at their privacy sword, similar to how Google fell at its own "Don't do evil" motto. E.g. it's meaningless bravado when not applied to universally to all countries, aka China.

I wish Mozilla would join them by publishing a Firefox for iOS with their own renderer and Javascript (which they have been prevented from doing). Get booted and join the lawsuit. That's the activist Mozilla I can get behind.

How is Mozilla to do that?

AFAIK Epic did their move by pushing "legal" iOS code, then doing an over-the-air update of adding non-Apple payment system.

Mozilla can't just push a rendering & JavaScript engine "over the air".

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#345

Post by dmitriid »

DennisAleynikov wrote: post #341
dmitriid wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think Epic absolutely needs other major game studios, and major software companies, to join in their protest to effect the desired change. Would Epic be willing to lead the fight against consoles as well (they charge 30%, too)? Oh, right...

oh man people assume they aren't fighting the consoles clearly have not read the lawsuits themselves epic is proposing a 12% rate to all the stores and asked Google for it as well, they have fought playstation policies against crossplay and won in the past.

> epic is proposing a 12% rate to all the stores and asked Google for it as well

"All stores" as in "actually all stores" or "Apple Store and Google Play Store only"? Their entire "fight" is very much targeted, and consoles (which are Epic's key partners) are not really targeted. Moreover, Epic goes out of its way to define consoles as something else.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#346

Post by DonaldPShimoda »

mthoms wrote: post #311
DonaldPShimoda wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is a specific targeted thing. It just comes with the general deactivation of the Epic account. It's the same as the whole "Apple is banning all apps made with Unreal Engine!" which was a poor take on the issue. (What actually happened was Apple un-approved Epic's license, which had a cascading effect because Unreal Engine was signed under the same license, and so software dependent on Unreal Engine…

>What actually happened was Apple un-approved Epic's license, which had a cascading effect because Unreal Engine was signed under the same license, and so software dependent on Unreal Engine became no longer signed and thus was not going to be allowed on the App Store. Developers using Unreal Engine certainly do not sign their app with Epic's credentials.

No, I mean the Engine is signed with Epic's credentials, so if the Unreal Engine isn't approved for App Store stuff because Epic's credentials are revoked then things dependent on it are impacted.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#347

Post by outworlder »

aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

> Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone.

Well, yes. Thing is, Epic essentially started a war. Had they went and sued Apple... that's normal. They could have also tried this in the EU where they would likely garner some governmental help.

But the decided to violate license agreements, created smear PR campaigns and so on. It is unsurprising that Apple is hitting back.

Even if Epic wins, I'm not sure the public is better served by a store from a company that punches so low. Using they customers as fodder is not ok.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#348

Post by FreeFull »

chasing wrote: post #116
sandstrom wrote: post #2

Alright, so Apple are forcing all developers to add Sign-in with Apple (if they have other third-party login services), privacy benefits aside. But if you Apple decide that they don't like you anymore, they'll not only cut you off the App Store, they'll also bury all (or a subset of) your users. Apple is starting to act more and more like a bully. [1] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#sig...

> But if Apple decide that they don't like you anymore... Epic intentionally broke the rules. Maybe Apple's actions are right, maybe wrong. But don't pretend Apple just out-of-the-blue decided to do this to Epic for no reason.

Epic did intentionally break the rules here, but I definitely have seen stories on HN before where Apple would refuse to let an app pass review without providing a proper reason why, and some more shadier things. If they do decide they don't like a developer, that developer really has little recourse.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#350

Post by sjy »

AlexandrB wrote: post #101
joshstrange wrote: post #14

It's always interesting to read the comments on articles about the Epic Games situation. We can have discussions about Apple's cut or how Apple operates their store but this is such a clear cut case that I'm honestly surprised so many HN readers are siding with Epic (or maybe it's just the anti-Apple crowd looking for any reason to crap on Apple). Epic tried to get Apple to allow a whole new store on their platform A…

I agree with you that this case is clear cut based on current legislation, precedent, and ToS (as I understand these, IANAL). I think people are siding with Epic because it feels like Apple is overreaching and abusing their market power. Unfortunately, the normal mechanisms for dealing with this: regulation and legislation, are so dysfunctional at this moment in history that it does not seem likely that a legislative…

What makes this case clear cut based on current legislation and precedent? In what sense is “regulation” or new legislation an alternative to antitrust litigation? The U.S. has been dealing with alleged monopolies via protracted trials about highly contestable economic facts, based on generic antitrust legislation, for a century now – Standard Oil, IBM, AT&T, Microsoft ...
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