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“Let her speak please”

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Re: “Let her speak please”

#531

Post by Harimwakairi »

gpawl wrote: post #522
ryanmarsh wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People get talked over by people. I see this all the time and it's generally sexless. As a consultant I've helped at least 100 teams have crucial conversations across tens of businesses. I don't get the constant refrain that this is a male vs. female thing.

Your anecdote of your fuzzy memory is not research. When measurements are taken, there is a clear pattern: https://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2017/01/03/gal-inte... https://hbr.org/2017/04/female-supreme-court-justices-are-in... http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/03/19/google...

Thanks for bringing data.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#532

Post by gpawl »

token_throwaway wrote: post #350

Ugh, I watched the video, jesus the host might be the least self-aware person who's ever been asked to host anything. I was unreasonably annoyed listening to him. Anyway I want to share something, made this throwaway account specifically for this. I'm the only female at my company, and a developer to boot. I'm assertive in general, I make sure I'm heard. In fact, I try to be hyper-aware of how much I'm talking in a m…

Thank you. People get distracted by the difference between "intentional discrimination" and "disparate impact".

You are showing good leadership to your mild-mannered coworkers and also the ones who are better ad speaking than listening, both the women and the men.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#533

Post by gpawl »

ideonexus wrote: post #106

If you see this kind of behavior in the workplace, I highly recommend the technique of "echoing" as a means of overcoming it. In meetings I've seen it happen many times where an introvert makes a brilliant point, which gets completely lost when some manager who likes to hear themselves talk follows them. When this happens, I find it incredibly powerful to raise my hand and say, "I'd like to bring us back to [introver…

Thank you. Mild-mannereds unite!

Re: “Let her speak please”

#534

Post by f4rker »

gpawl wrote: post #522
ryanmarsh wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People get talked over by people. I see this all the time and it's generally sexless. As a consultant I've helped at least 100 teams have crucial conversations across tens of businesses. I don't get the constant refrain that this is a male vs. female thing.

Your anecdote of your fuzzy memory is not research. When measurements are taken, there is a clear pattern: https://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2017/01/03/gal-inte... https://hbr.org/2017/04/female-supreme-court-justices-are-in... http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/03/19/google...

A few links to NY Times and Forbes is also not research.

Whatever gender is in the minority will often be talked over.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#535

Post by t_brah »

dragonwriter wrote: post #515
t_brah wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No, the effects of deliberate, targeted differences in socialization by gender aren't the fault of the people experiencing adverse impacts because of the intersection of those with social structures that respond better to people socialized in the manner which is targeted at the other gender. I've heard this argument before - that women are deliberately socialized to be subordinate. Personally, I believe in the stren…

> I've heard this argument before - that women are deliberately socialized to be subordinate. That's because it's a fairly well established fact. > Personally, I believe in the strength & agency of women. Yeah, so do I. That doesn't negate the effects of differential socialization; objective external circumstances have real impacts.

It is possible for both things to be true at once:

* For women to have strength & agency

* For external circumstances & socialization to have impacts on individuals

But what I don't understand is how you can maintain simultaneously that women are strong & have agency, but must receive corrective action sensitive to gender-differentiated effects.

Are the strong women you're thinking of incapable of overcoming societal pressures without gender sensitive treatment?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#536

Post by Sacho »

azernik wrote: post #385
walterstucco wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in this instance, if you watch the video, males were treated differently. and in other instances women were treated differently. so what? what's the point? do you wanna say that this instance represent the way women are generally treated when they talk?

Studies generally say "yes" - this is the way women are generally treated when they talk.

Can you please share such a study?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#537

Post by jacobolus »

cynicalbastard wrote: post #436
tclancy wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like he was a good interviewer when he was younger. I'm just into my 40s now and I can see how you could get worse with age as you start to assume you already know the answers. It's why I've stopped listening to the "In Our Time" podcast in the past few years: all of a sudden Melvyn Bragg talks to the panel like he's double-parked.

he was tolerable even five years ago!

I haven’t watched much Charlie Rose in the past 5–10 years, because he was so infuriating to watch before that. So I disagree with your assertion. If you go back and watch his older interviewers I suspect you will change your mind.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#538

Post by snowwrestler »

zakk wrote: post #478
dragonwriter wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sorry, but if you are OK with the term "mansplaining" then you are OK with sexist behaviour. Having a term for a particular pattern of sexist behavior which is observed to be common is not the same as being okay with sexist behavior.

You miss the point: as you note, there's a sexist behaviour observed in some men. You have to choose a word to describe this behaviour. If you choose a word that suggests that a whole category has that certain behaviour, then you are being sexist. Let me show that with a simple example. Some women are always complaining and whining. You have to find a word for this behaviour. If you choose a word (femmwhining, maybe?…

The problem is not just people talking over people in general, the problem is specifically men talking over women, so a term that encapsulates that gender dynamic is appropriate.

A term that is gender neutral would be inaccurate and useless for drawing attention to the problem.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#539

Post by overgard »

pron wrote: post #371
andai wrote: post #86

> You may be amazed to hear it, but during this panel session I genuinely did not feel affronted or discriminated by the moderator’s behavior. It seemed more amusing to see him try posing a question in a way that at the same time tried answering it. It’s true that this made the question a bit of a moving target for me (and therefore harder to address coherently), but I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was root…

Sexism is not misogyny. It is not about intent, and certainly not about hurt feelings. It is an objective quality of a reality where women are given less power. A sexist situation either is or isn't. And as power is a social construct -- e.g. people who are treated with respect by others with a high social status, have their own status elevated and vice-versa -- the reality of sexism is determined by the effect on th…

Honestly this is a horrible philosophy -- the notion that anything can be sexist if someone chooses to be offended. You talk about an imbalance of power, but isn't the ability to recontextualize any bad behavior as sexist just because of the participants involved a huge source of power in of itself?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#540

Post by orbitingpluto »

devmunchies wrote: post #504
orbitingpluto wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If men are 3x as likely to engage in violent behaviour, is it sexism or simply a biological tendency? And if it is a biological tendency, is it not sexist to shame men for their more assertive tendencies? /sarcasm

Interrupting somebody else isn't physically hurting anybody. This is a real argument that affects lots of people. Don't dilute it with your sarcastic strawmans.

I was countering one strawman argument with another. Please realize that the bar to meet here isn't violence, it's professional and courtesy.
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