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“Let her speak please”

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Re: “Let her speak please”

#501

Post by t_brah »

dragonwriter wrote: post #461
turc1656 wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. By your statement, the reason it disproportionately impacts women is not because of some rudimentary, fundamental reason but rather because they fail to react the same way the men did and speak up. That lies 100% on the women. In fact what YOU wrote is actually sexist, since it suggests that the corrective action would be to act differently toward her, but not the men. Perhaps you might merely argue that he…

> By your statement, the reason it disproportionately impacts women is not because of some rudimentary, fundamental reason but rather because they fail to react the same way the men did and speak up. That lies 100% on the women. No, the effects of deliberate, targeted differences in socialization by gender aren't the fault of the people experiencing adverse impacts because of the intersection of those with social str…

>No, the effects of deliberate, targeted differences in socialization by gender aren't the fault of the people experiencing adverse impacts because of the intersection of those with social structures that respond better to people socialized in the manner which is targeted at the other gender.

I've heard this argument before - that women are deliberately socialized to be subordinate.

Personally, I believe in the strength & agency of women.

>It's not sexist to recognize that the consequences of past sexism may require corrective action that is sensitive to the gender-differentiated effects of that past sexism.

I don't understand how using a persons gender for gauging ability to cope with forceful men isn't sexist.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#502

Post by [deleted] »

jacobolus wrote: post #95
cynicalbastard wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Journalists definitely like to hear themselves talk, even when formulating questions while moderating a discussion. slightly off topic, but with the rise of ubiquitous audio/video and the interview/discussion/panel format, it is infuriating how many hosts just blatantly speak over their guests, over and over and over. it's one of the biggest tells between a professional interviewer and a rank amateur. i can barely…

Charlie Rose has been an absolutely abysmal interviewer his whole career, which is a tragedy considering how good they are at booking great guests. He asks long leading questions, proceeds to answer them himself, and then tacks on an “isn’t that right?” at the end. When the guest inevitably says “that’s not how I think of it, Charlie, let me explain ...”, he then interrupts and repeats his original claim again. Ugh,…

[deleted]

Re: “Let her speak please”

#503

Post by complexmango »

devnonymous wrote: post #487
ryanmarsh wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People get talked over by people. I see this all the time and it's generally sexless. As a consultant I've helped at least 100 teams have crucial conversations across tens of businesses. I don't get the constant refrain that this is a male vs. female thing.

Reading the comments here I am surprised at all the people who are claiming that people get talked over by other people all the time and it has nothing to do with sex. I mean, yeah there's no denying that there exist pushy jerks who are jerks to everyone but guess what? those kinds are more likely to be even greater jerks with women. So either this guy was a regular jerk talking over her because she was a woman or be…

That precludes the breed of jerks who will talk over anybody that will tolerate it.

What makes you think there aren't women who also like to claim the center of attention, regardless of other men OR women around them?

I don't understand this need to idolize one sex over the other, when the issue is that some people (like this moderator) are just more tone deaf or inconsiderate than others.

Equality between sexes implies treating everyone as a human rather than assuming that this moderator is a stand-in for men in general.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#504

Post by devmunchies »

orbitingpluto wrote: post #498
devmunchies wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If men are 3x as likely to interrupt women, is it sexism or simply a biological tendency? And if it is a biological tendency, is it not sexist to shame men for their more assertive tendencies?

If men are 3x as likely to engage in violent behaviour, is it sexism or simply a biological tendency? And if it is a biological tendency, is it not sexist to shame men for their more assertive tendencies? /sarcasm

Interrupting somebody else isn't physically hurting anybody. This is a real argument that affects lots of people. Don't dilute it with your sarcastic strawmans.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#505

Post by turc1656 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #461
turc1656 wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. By your statement, the reason it disproportionately impacts women is not because of some rudimentary, fundamental reason but rather because they fail to react the same way the men did and speak up. That lies 100% on the women. In fact what YOU wrote is actually sexist, since it suggests that the corrective action would be to act differently toward her, but not the men. Perhaps you might merely argue that he…

> By your statement, the reason it disproportionately impacts women is not because of some rudimentary, fundamental reason but rather because they fail to react the same way the men did and speak up. That lies 100% on the women. No, the effects of deliberate, targeted differences in socialization by gender aren't the fault of the people experiencing adverse impacts because of the intersection of those with social str…

It may not be the fault of the people experiencing "adverse impacts", but they still make a choice on how to respond to them. The commenter claimed that women find it more difficult to respond in the same way as men. To me, that's sexist because they are saying women are essentially less capable of standing up for themselves. I don't understand how anyone doesn't see it that way.

"It's not sexist to recognize that the consequences of past sexism may require corrective action that is sensitive to the gender-differentiated effects of that past sexism."

True, but if the corrective action is treating women differently, then yeah, that's sexist. You can't say this guy is being sexist because he acted differently toward her and then say that we need to treat women differently than men to correct past sexism, but that different treatment is somehow not sexist.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#506

Post by cooper12 »

b6 wrote: post #172
cooper12 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mere thought that the world isn't a meritocracy frightens techbros. Any word ending in -ism is like a swear word to them. It's a really big problem that no one wants to acknowledge and if you do bring it up suddenly you're an SJW, combative, political, etc... It speaks numbers that in the link so many people had the same thought as the author, but were afraid to speak out. We've successfully stigmatized calling p…

> The mere thought that the world isn't a meritocracy frightens techbros. People you disagree with are complicated people with complicated views. I don't think it's good to label them, treat them as one group, and characterize their views as just fear. How do you feel if I say "the mere thought that the world pretty much is a meritocracy frightens feminists"? Fair?

A techbro is actually a specific group. Similar to a fratbro. It was my generalization of the term "brogrammer". And I wouldn't really react to such a statement because firstly it's naive, and second it's based on its own definition of feminism.

I'm also quite tired of this "complicated and unique" business. I've been on HN long enough to notice some trends and they all point in one direction. Some people just don't like the mirror turned on them.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#507

Post by ethbro »

devmunchies wrote: post #492
ethbro wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2014/07/23/study_m... Men are 3x as likely to interrupt women. Women will interrupt women, but rarely men. Informal study, but decent sample size.

If men are 3x as likely to interrupt women, is it sexism or simply a biological tendency? And if it is a biological tendency, is it not sexist to shame men for their more assertive tendencies?

Does it matter?

I'd put the emphasis on the outcome: women being able to express their opinions and contribute to the conversation / problem. Being interrupted (while speaking less in the first place) seems counterproductive to that end.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#508

Post by pacala »

watwut wrote: post #358
obstacle1 wrote: post #23

What's really interesting is that the author only became 'boiling' with rage when this socially-unaware moderator talked over the woman on the panel, not when he talked over the other men. This kind of behavior is extremely common in STEM, and happens to everyone. If you don't talk with confidence, purpose, and animation, you're going to get talked over by the alpha nerd of the group. Man, woman, or purple elephant.…

> This kind of behavior is extremely common in STEM, and happens to everyone. If you don't talk with confidence, purpose, and animation, you're going to get talked over by the alpha nerd of the group. Man, woman, or purple elephant. Problem? Yes. Sexism? No. I thought about this argument a bit and I disagree on multiple grounds. 1.) These fields used to be refuge for actual nerds - shy introverted awkward people who…

What changed: status and money. It will pass.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#509

Post by devmunchies »

ethbro wrote: post #507
devmunchies wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If men are 3x as likely to interrupt women, is it sexism or simply a biological tendency? And if it is a biological tendency, is it not sexist to shame men for their more assertive tendencies?

Does it matter? I'd put the emphasis on the outcome: women being able to express their opinions and contribute to the conversation / problem. Being interrupted (while speaking less in the first place) seems counterproductive to that end.

So its an argument between equal opportunity and equal outcome. It sounds like people want to shame men so as to gain an equal outcome.

Is there a better solution? I'm being serious.

(At the very least, we don't need to accuse men of being sexist if is proven to be a biological tendency—we should call a spade a spade)

Re: “Let her speak please”

#510

Post by jccalhoun »

jancsika wrote: post #361
jccalhoun wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I''m not a sociologist. My phd minor was Anthro and I don't have any citations handy. But basically you can never know someone's intention with 100% certainty. There is always the possibility that someone has different intentions than you think they are or that they say they have. Even if it is someone you know very well and trust there is the possibility that you are in some sort of Truman Show where everyone you kn…

I shouldn't have put "citations" in parentheses. That's what I'm most interested in-- recommended readings from people who study this stuff for a living.

Off the top of my head I'm not thinking of anything specific but it is related to the intentional fallacy and thinking along the lines of The Death of the Author as well as more anthro/socio stuff by people like Erving Goffman. I'm thinking of his Presentation of Self in Everyday Life where he talks about things in terms of acting and live theater.
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