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How to lower the price of plant-based meat

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Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#521

Post by Grustaf »

henrikschroder wrote: post #274
Grustaf wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you could also just promote delicious vegetarian dishes. There are entire cultures that mostly eat vegetarian. Fake meat is such a silly concept.

...and another person who completely misses the point, and don't understand why people eat meat. Which delicious vegetarian dishes offer the same taste and texture as meat dishes?

My point is that you shouldn’t expect the taste pr texture of meat if you’re not eating meat. Find vegetarian dishes you like instead.

That’s what I did when I was a vegetarian. There is enough delicious vegetarian food to last you a lifetime.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#522

Post by tomjen3 »

Sevii wrote: post #376
danShumway wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking your argument at face value and assuming you're right, I still want to point out that those subsidies are applied primarily to a subset of foods, especially feed crops for animals. Our government isn't spending nearly the same amount of time and money trying to subsidize fruits and vegetables. Shouldn't we be just as worried about those products being sourced from other countries? Why are we treating animal fe…

From a strategic perspective grain is the most important thing in a food shortage. People can live a year or two without fruit or vegetables, but without the calories in grain things will get violent fast.

People aren't going to live a year without fresh fruits without riots, but if you want a strategic reserve it should be potatoes.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#523

Post by tomjen3 »

henrikschroder wrote: post #164
WaitWaitWha wrote: post #143

A tangential topic - I really think that in general calling plant-based things "meat", a terrible idea. It does not promote plant-base diet or meat consumption reduction. It is trying to be what is not. I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. Why? Because the consumer is told it is "meat", so they will compare it to meat. They will compare these patties to a real, prime An…

> I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. I think you are completely wrong. People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture, but at the same time everyone knows that meat is produced by killing animals, and that it's much less sustainable than vegetarian food. If you want to get people to switch to meat alternatives, you have to keep everything that's great abo…

I eat meat because I like the taste, but I don't give a hoot about the slaughter/animals. I don't want a replacement for my steak that is a bad steak, and I don't want to ruin great vegetables by making them into something that is not.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#524

Post by danShumway »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #509
bushbaba wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also just have large import tariffs on food. I’m honestly suprised the us doesn’t just have a 25%+ import tariff. Would quickly cause more domestic manufacturing. Like why do we even import garlic from China. We have plenty of domestic ability to produce.

While you guys throw tariffs on food here and cut subsidies are any of you aware that for some 10% of American's having food on the table is not a given? Now I'm not saying that subsidising farmers to produce huge crops of the same 3 crops is the best way of continuing to ensure no one goes hungry, it self evidently doesn't work given the current status quo. However, to talk about making huge changes to these systems…

I'm skeptical about tariffs and I'm not necessarily opposed to subsidies (although I do kind of question whether they are actually an efficient way to help income-challenged Americans) -- but we could still distribute those subsidies differently in order to cheapen healthier food that's in our better interest to encourage. We could also, if we're getting rid of subsidies, consider giving income-challenged people money directly, which may or may not be comparatively cost-effective to working directly with the industry.

So there's a lot of avenues that we could take, and yeah, eliminating food subsidies entirely and not giving any other kinds of aid would probably be a mistake. I'm not disagreeing with you. It's just... there's a lot of things we could change or try that wouldn't leave people to starve. Recognizing that meat is subsidized opens up doors for us to talk about whether our current system is efficient, about what behaviors our current system incentivizes. If nothing else it at least acknowledges that we are currently messing with the market, that meat prices aren't naturally low, and that we if we're comfortable with that kind of intervention, then we could at least mess with the market in different ways to promote more diverse foods.

Right now, we are artificially boosting a few segments of the food industry to frankly unhealthy levels of consumption (at least in most of the US) in order to help people afford food. It is worth considering if it is possible to help those people without propping up industries that are at least indirectly responsible for a nontrivial number of health risks and environmental challenges in the US. I don't think most people here are saying we should leave income-strapped Americans to starve (or at least I'm not), but like you said, the current status quo isn't really working, and it has some some pretty big downsides.

Even if you don't want to touch subsidies at all, at the least we could talk about stuff like checkoff programs. I find it much harder to argue that government intervention into how food is advertised is for the benefit of low-income Americans, and I think the advertising that comes from that forced tax on food is responsible for some increase in consumption.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#525

Post by hutzlibu »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #509
bushbaba wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also just have large import tariffs on food. I’m honestly suprised the us doesn’t just have a 25%+ import tariff. Would quickly cause more domestic manufacturing. Like why do we even import garlic from China. We have plenty of domestic ability to produce.

While you guys throw tariffs on food here and cut subsidies are any of you aware that for some 10% of American's having food on the table is not a given? Now I'm not saying that subsidising farmers to produce huge crops of the same 3 crops is the best way of continuing to ensure no one goes hungry, it self evidently doesn't work given the current status quo. However, to talk about making huge changes to these systems…

Aren't we talking mainly about meat subsidise and not food in general?

So the consequences would be poorer people would eat less meat, while the rich continue to eat unchanged.

That is the case with anything you want more expensive. The poor people would be the ones having less of it.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#526

Post by danShumway »

tengbretson wrote: post #410
wyre wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I would love to see subsidies ended on animal products, it couldn’t happen overnight without huge backlash. Lowering the subsidies over time and eliminating the power that the animal agriculture industry has over politics would do a lot to increase the number of plant-based eaters.

So with your plan, if I get rid of the cows in my pasture and a bunch of deer move in to graze it instead do I still get taxed for their farts too?

That depends. Do you plan to start breeding them relentlessly until 60% of all mammals on the earth are deer? As long as you promise not to do that, we won't have a problem.

More to the point, this seems like a misreading of GP's comment. Wyre specifically says that they don't want to impose taxes, that they want to very slowly cut or redirect subsidies instead. So I guess a followup question is, is the government currently giving you money to let deer fart in your pasture? Because if not, you'll also probably be OK.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#527

Post by JCharante »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #509
bushbaba wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also just have large import tariffs on food. I’m honestly suprised the us doesn’t just have a 25%+ import tariff. Would quickly cause more domestic manufacturing. Like why do we even import garlic from China. We have plenty of domestic ability to produce.

While you guys throw tariffs on food here and cut subsidies are any of you aware that for some 10% of American's having food on the table is not a given? Now I'm not saying that subsidising farmers to produce huge crops of the same 3 crops is the best way of continuing to ensure no one goes hungry, it self evidently doesn't work given the current status quo. However, to talk about making huge changes to these systems…

> While you guys throw tariffs on food here and cut subsidies are any of you aware that for some 10% of American's having food on the table is not a given?

So let's funnel that 25% import tarif or money we save from not subsidizing the meat industry into the federal food stamps program.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#528

Post by Grustaf »

drukenemo wrote: post #231
tashoecraft wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. So many non vegetarian/vegan people say stuff like this and it’s just wrong. Or they’ll say “why have a fake burger, can’t you just enjoy vegetarian food, why does it have to be a burger? If you want burger just eat one and stop trying to copy meat, innovate on your own”. It’s just people completely missing the point. If you get fake meat close enough in taste/texture/price you’ll move a large amount of produ…

Plant-based food aimed at replacing meat is often a too-many ingredient, industrialised nightmare.

I think that’s why fake meat is so popular in the US, where all food is very processed, and the concept of natural food is something only the rich care about. The average person already eats ultra processed low industrial food, so the switch is easy, and since it will make a few companies a ton of money, it’s being heavily promoted everywhere.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#529

Post by Melting_Harps »

danShumway wrote: post #93
hannob wrote: post #30

Interestingly it doesn't even discuss the obvious solution: Let people who buy real meat pay for the externalities. (Interestingly even in places where there's some form of carbon pricing - like the EU - this often doesn't cover a large share of emissions from meat production, as methane emissions are very relevant here - I'm not aware of any methane pricing scheme anywhere.)

Even if we ignore externalities and pollution costs, just stop outright subsidizing animal meat production so much. The reason meat is so cheap is because our government puts a lot of effort and money into making it cheap. I don't know why more people aren't trying to sell this to the "free market" crowd as government overreach. The reality right now is that plant-based protein is gaining popularity despite the marke…

> Even if we ignore externalities and pollution costs, just stop outright subsidizing animal meat production so much. The reason meat is so cheap is because our government puts a lot of effort and money into making it cheap.

The same applies to plant based subsides, by the way. I'm in favour of doing away with them entirely in a gradual phase, and offering new farmers low interest loans (lock these current historical rates for first generation farmers) on land and equipment and help much of the dienfranchised and under/unemployed youth into sustainable, organic Agriculture and its ancillary businesses and let them set and the make the market for their products. Not hedge funds and wall street speculators!

This at scale could help make environmentalism profitable like nothing else.

Crop insurance could be offered privately and locally by a series of brokers and established companies and a resurgence of farmers markets as a hub of local communities could do so much good given how destroyed the food Industry is after COVID which would be ideal to ensure we don't repeat the same mitakes.

I'm a 'free market guy,' and also did horticulture Ag and focused on the 'Rolls Royce' of food (Biodynamic) in the EU and then in the US that commanded a significant premium on price and exclusivity. I understand this topic very well and has been focus of most of my adult life. By the way: Free Markets are entirely incompatible when coupled to Central Bank based fiat currencies, and impossible when the very unit of account is manipulated by centralized entities.

I could break down your entire post, but I won't, but suffice it to say your argument is missing that it's not just distorting the market and sweeping the externatlities of livestock (meat) raising but also crop and specific commodities--corn and cotton being the highest culprit on that list that use the most pesticides and poison the soil and water which should be regarded as the crime that it is: Ecocide. Which is done to feed a growing populace, which also includes vegetarians and vegans.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#530

Post by Grustaf »

Spooky23 wrote: post #322
henrikschroder wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...unlike the animal industry which is just full of fluffy, happy, loved cows who proudly line themselves up to be turned into tasty beef for your pleasure... Have you seen the animal industry? It's absolutely disgusting. Getting rid of that would be an enormous net win, both ethical and environmental.

Fix that then. Replacing garbage meat with garbage ersatz meat isn’t a win.

It’s a win for the food industry, because fake meat can be made extremely cheaply, but the price is still anchored to the cost of actual meat.
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